Diciplining the Puppies

[kcsheperd 13]

So I've figured out that Payslee is definately the Alpha in my house. The boys are okay with this, but she is always very ugly when they have chew bones down. She hoards them, and if Sawyer tries to come get one she will run after him (I put 4 bones in 4 different corners) and run him off biting him at one corner, then run to the next corner and bite at him..etc.. She will snarl and growl at him if he tries to get close. He could care less..she never really hurts him, but it has escalated to the point of them fighting and growl-biting at each other, to the point of me having to break them apart. Which I DON'T like.

I've tried several different tactics to squash this behavior..I have taken tthe bones away from her and given them to Sawyer. I have told her "NO"..I have squirted the water at her and said, "NO". I have turned her over and let Sawyer take the bone..But NONE OF IT IS WORKING.. She barks and continues to act ugly. Is this behavior bad, or just an example of her being an alpha and protecting her bone? She never acts ugly with their food..she always Shares, and all three of them eat out of each others bowls. Its only with Chew bones.. She never does this with toys, treats, or me..just the bones.. Any ideas, or suggestions would be appreciated..I've attached a video so you can see her naughtiness.

[Tzumommy 1]

You know KC looking back in the other videos she has done this to him for awhile and I think you need to separate her from the boys when she does this, like in another room or a crate and she will get the picture believe me she will and also when you are doing this tell her no force fully.

If you don't get this under control it could get bad.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Tzumommy

[kcsheperd 13]

Like when I give them the bones? Or just take her out of that situation and let the boys keep eating their bones when she acts ugly? Its irionic to me that the little 6lb girl is dominating my house!

Edited June 5, 2009 by kcsheperd

[Tzumommy 1]

When you give them the bones and she does this behavior take her with out a bone.

[enchantedmountain 2]

Girls are pretty stubborn and once they decide they are in charge it is hard (if not impossible) to correct it. My Roxy is my Queen bee and she lets it be known. sometimes she chooses to play and sometimes she chooses to throw her weight around. I have always been told that when they act like that to take them away and put them make them be alone for awhile. But to be honest I have never had this work for me (it helps at that moment, but that is about it). As long as the other dogs understand she's boss then everything is usually ok, it is if someone decides to fight back that you might have a problem. roxy wouldn't hurt a flea, but lets other dogs know she is in charge.

This sounds crazy, but if one dog is the boss, then your job is to make sure the others think she is the boss also so they don't fight back and try and "dethrone" her. I read an artical once saying this is very important. what they said was that make sure what ever dog is "in charge" you pet them all, but always pet the alpha first, when feeding always feed the alpha first. That way there is not confusion between the dogs as to which one is in-charge, it helps elimate fighting, because the others will be more likely to back down to her.

Ok, what does everyone think of that theory.

I was told that is what I did wrong with my Roxy and Ginger. As most of you know I had to place Ginger in another home. Both her and Roxy are sweet sweet dogs, but hated each other. roxy would growl at her (like she always does to show she is in charge), but.... I would always pet Ginger first and feed her first because I always felt bad that Roxy was always putting her in her place, well... one day Ginger decided she wanted to be in charge. I was told it was because in a round about way I was letting ginger know she should be in charge. when girls fight neither one backs down generally (gosh sounds like us humans, LOL). If it is a boy and and girl or two boys, one will usually walk away, but two girls generally do not and you can have real real problems.

I am not sure what I think of that theory and would love some advice as it is something that I also really struggled with as to how to handle that sort of situation and the whole alpha dog situation.

[berrytzus 6]

Peanut was always taking things from Gingerbread and a couple of months ago I started doing things differently. Neither one is allowed to take anything from the other. I still have to closely supervise Peanut when I give them treats and they're separated when they eat. If I see Peanut make ANY action towards taking the treat or bone I say NO. If he doesn't listen then I whisk him up and put him in his pen for 10 minutes. They don't mind hearing no no no no no. There has to be some sort of consequence.

You are the alpha of your pack and you say what goes. Simply have a no tolerance rule for what she's doing with bones. Choose one method and stick to it. They absolutely know if you mean business or not or if you're a little lax in reinforcing rules.

Edited to add that you have to be very observant of her behavior and react quickly. Hopefully BEFORE things escalate. Like for instance if you see her body tense and she's focusing in on the other dogs' bones, that's the best time to firmly say no and mean it.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Luvntzus

[kcsheperd 13]

Yeah, thats whats funny.. Sawyer hardly ever fights back ( as you seen in the video, his tail is always wagging) but he does bark at her, like, 'Hey, stop it' but I think he is more playing and she is more serious. They have their moments where they are all eating their own separate bones, and acting very nice about it. However, there have been times when Pays stands up and fights at Sawyer, he defends himself, but like I said, it mostly all noise, and not any bites, or blood..They have never done that to each other. I know its a Payslee problem because usually SAwyer will just give her whatever she wants.. Since Rally is the old man in the house, I've been treating him like the alpha, meaning he gets the treats first, food first, etc.. Should I change that now?

[Tzumommy 1]

Like Tamara I put a time limit on it to, sorry forgot to mention that.

Yeah, thats whats funny.. Sawyer hardly ever fights back ( as you seen in the video, his tail is always wagging) but he does bark at her, like, 'Hey, stop it' but I think he is more playing and she is more serious. They have their moments where they are all eating their own separate bones, and acting very nice about it. However, there have been times when Pays stands up and fights at Sawyer, he defends himself, but like I said, it mostly all noise, and not any bites, or blood..They have never done that to each other. I know its a Payslee problem because usually SAwyer will just give her whatever she wants.. Since Rally is the old man in the house, I've been treating him like the alpha, meaning he gets the treats first, food first, etc.. Should I change that now?

You might try that but if she goes back and does this behavior again it is not that, she is just being a brat (sorry) and needs to be corrected.

Edited June 16, 2009 by ShihtzuBeauty

[enchantedmountain 2]

Yeah, thats whats funny.. Sawyer hardly ever fights back ( as you seen in the video, his tail is always wagging) but he does bark at her, like, 'Hey, stop it' but I think he is more playing and she is more serious. They have their moments where they are all eating their own separate bones, and acting very nice about it. However, there have been times when Pays stands up and fights at Sawyer, he defends himself, but like I said, it mostly all noise, and not any bites, or blood..They have never done that to each other. I know its a Payslee problem because usually SAwyer will just give her whatever she wants.. Since Rally is the old man in the house, I've been treating him like the alpha, meaning he gets the treats first, food first, etc.. Should I change that now?

I think it is really hard to know what they are thinking sometimes. for me personally. I don't think you need to treat Rally any different as it doesn't sound like there is a problem with him and plus Pays is used to how rally is treated, because he was there first anyway and she was a puppy when you got her, so it is all she knows.

I personaly agree there needs to be a zero tolerance with the behavior. That is how I have always worked. but I feel like I failed miserabley with Roxy and Ginger, because I didn't know how to handle their conflict with each other. I have always worked with the idea that I am the Alpha, but that theory did not work in my case with my two that had a problem. However in your case they are not really fighting or anything (pays just likes to pretend she is in charge), so I think that it isn't a bad Idea to be a little tougher on pays and making her understand you rule the roost and see how it goes. She may just except that the bevior isn't tolerated.

[emmasmom 14]

KC, I've got the same problem with Emma. She is definately the alpha dog around here & she steals Sadie's bone away all of the time. Sadie will give a growl & then walk away.....never thought a tzu would rule the roost over a lab! LOL! We have tried everything & nothing works. The time we have a real problem is when we take her to our son's house. They have a female jack russell, that is also alpha, & they get really snarky with each other.

[enchantedmountain 2]

Ok, I was just able to actually watch the video. Pays cracks me up!! She is so freakin' cute! I expected to see a ton of really nasty growling and meaness and quite frankly, just saw pays being bossy. Which I don't think is really awfull behaviour. Of course you don't want it to get our of hand, but she is just showing him who the boss is. To me that is normal dog behavior. Nothing really drastic and nothing out of the norm. I personally wouldn't get too concerned with it, but then again I did fail miserably at my two, ugh. Regaurdless, they are both still the cutest things ever!

[kcsheperd 13]

Rael! Don't give in to her cuteness! Don't let her fool you!! NO, I'm just kidding.. I posted the video because thats what I was wondering, if it was just a normal dog reaction to someone taking her bone. I mean in the wild if another dog came to take the Alpha's bone, she would be like, "Hell no"..and thats what Payslee is doing. Plus she will ALWAYS let me take it, and has never snapped at me, or acted the least bit hesitent to let me have it, so I agree that she is being bossy..

I still correct her to let her know that its unwanted behavior, because I don't want it to elevate..but I don't think she is being vicious, or aggressive, just basically letting Sawyer know that he ain't getting that bone!

She goes to a "Manners" class on June 15th, so we'll see if they teach her some! lol.

[berrytzus 6]

I mean in the wild if another dog came to take the Alpha's bone, she would be like, "Hell no"..and thats what Payslee is doing.

The thing is, it isn't the wild where some dogs wouldn't have access to the good things. Since it's your house, you can make sure that things don't go that way.

In the video it looks like Sawyer is trying to initiate play. What I don't like is that Payslee goes after Sawyer when he's nowhere near the bone and has actually turned to start chewing on his foot. He's not at all going after the bone and doesn't see her coming. To me it looks like she's being a bit of a bully.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Luvntzus

[miley's mom 0]

Girls are pretty stubborn and once they decide they are in charge it is hard (if not impossible) to correct it. My Roxy is my Queen bee and she lets it be known. sometimes she chooses to play and sometimes she chooses to throw her weight around. I have always been told that when they act like that to take them away and put them make them be alone for awhile. But to be honest I have never had this work for me (it helps at that moment, but that is about it). As long as the other dogs understand she's boss then everything is usually ok, it is if someone decides to fight back that you might have a problem. roxy wouldn't hurt a flea, but lets other dogs know she is in charge.

This sounds crazy, but if one dog is the boss, then your job is to make sure the others think she is the boss also so they don't fight back and try and "dethrone" her. I read an artical once saying this is very important. what they said was that make sure what ever dog is "in charge" you pet them all, but always pet the alpha first, when feeding always feed the alpha first. That way there is not confusion between the dogs as to which one is in-charge, it helps elimate fighting, because the others will be more likely to back down to her.

Ok, what does everyone think of that theory.

I was told that is what I did wrong with my Roxy and Ginger. As most of you know I had to place Ginger in another home. Both her and Roxy are sweet sweet dogs, but hated each other. roxy would growl at her (like she always does to show she is in charge), but.... I would always pet Ginger first and feed her first because I always felt bad that Roxy was always putting her in her place, well... one day Ginger decided she wanted to be in charge. I was told it was because in a round about way I was letting ginger know she should be in charge. when girls fight neither one backs down generally (gosh sounds like us humans, LOL). If it is a boy and and girl or two boys, one will usually walk away, but two girls generally do not and you can have real real problems.

I am not sure what I think of that theory and would love some advice as it is something that I also really struggled with as to how to handle that sort of situation and the whole alpha dog situation.

I don't know much about this or this theory but it does sort of make sense doesn't it. I'm really interested in what other have to say.

If this theory is true it might be a simple way to solve the problem with Paysley. It makes sense from a pack point of view.

[Stacey 7]

Mine do this to each other over treats and chews..... so now anytime I give them something like that, they get crated seperatly....

Since i have two crates, Lea goes in one, Bert goes in the other and Maci stays out and rules the roost so to say.

I just avoid it before it happens.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Stacey

[tzukeeper 12]

I think Payslee is absolutely adorable in this video. I wish I had a video of how my dogs act with each other....very similar on occasion to what I see Payslee doing. Harmless in my opinion and I wouldn't concern myself with it. I have 2 that are very territorial and have gotten into many fights....real fights. The kind that if left alone one of them would be hurt badly. Doggie politics are sometimes hard to figure out but the way Sawyer is acting tells me that Payslee's actions are nothing to worry about. Sawyer is so dang cute! His actions in this video are so typical of a wonderful little boy Tzu. :tapfingers5rg:

[Riquena 2]

KC, thanks for posting this. It's interesting to read everyone's input on this topic. I've never had two dogs at once so this information is great. While Mia is not as bossy as Payslee, she seems to do the same thing to Chico, just not as aggressive. Chico always initiates play and sometimes he'll take her bone or toy away, but she doesn't growl much or run him off. Sometimes he'll try to take her treats away because while she's chewing and savoring it, he's already swallowed it!! But with a firm "NO", he's gotten the point. But they've been like this since they both arrived and I guess I never gave it any concern because, again, I don't see too much aggression.

[tzuhouse 4]

This is a very interesting topic. My two are similar in that if Josie gets a toy or chew, Maddy will take it nearly every time. Sometimes it will result in a play/bite activity between the two, but usually Josie just lets him have it. Most of the time when they "play" (I hope) fight is when one just wants to play. They will lay on the floor and one will just start snapping at the other and then they usually start rolling and shaking each others fur....sometimes Josie is the agressor, other times it is Maddy, but the funniest part (even tho I really do think Maddy is the alpha), Josie will stand over Maddy, while he lays flat on his back and she just kinda pins him by holding her legs against his sides. He just lays there, both making NO noise or movement....then Maddy will "yelp" or squeal like he is being hurt....I haven't ever intervened, only when Josie starts pulling Maddy around by his leg....then I make her stop....so, go figure....WHO really is alpha.

I am interested in everyones opinion cause you never know when a problem might occur. I DO LOVE the video...Pays didn't look anything to me other than being silly, wanting to play while still being somewhat territorial. Just too DANG CUTE in my book.

Edited June 6, 2009 by catnjr

[borzoimom 24]

Okay- here is the source of the problem and actually if the actions continue on your part, its only going to get worse. By taking the bones from her, and giving them to Sawyer, you are making her " more determined" to get it the next time.

This is what I suggest you do. A bone is 'designated " to one dog, and the other dog doesn't 'touch it"- by your dominance. Okay- you have one bone for each dog. YOu hand a bone to her, then you give to Sawyer. If she goes after Sawyer to take his bone, you are discplining that she took the bone. You dont' pick it back up and hand it to him. You are telling her" DONT TOUCH". I would suggest as you hand the bone you say their names- meaning that is yours as you hand it. When she goes after it, scruff her and put her back where she was, and tell her to stay. If she breaks the stay, you discipline that by putting her back. If she fights you, you roll her. You are not hurting her but you ARE telling her " I decide where these bones go.

To practice this before the big event. Take a bone with just her in the room. Say her name hand her the bone. PUt another bone across the room without saying a word. If she goes to approach it, put her back, ie 'time out'. in a stay. Wait awhile, call her out of a stay. If she approaches the other bone, call her back to you- if she doesn't come, discpline the lack of obedience in being called back. Practice this until she has it down pack, then do the above paragraph.

( I used ths method for any bones, especially rawhide. I have given you that bone, and that is the one and I decide who has what, and when. type thing. Same thing as " this is your food bowl, and you dont go eat anothers one. This also with food bowl prevents gulping food because they learn that is all I am getting. Any left overs are tossed- not fed to another dog..)

Edited June 6, 2009 by borzoimom

[Tzumommy 1]

Very good idea Michelle !

[borzoimom 24]

Also- if you can not watch them you pick up the bones. Therefore you know you are correcting each wrong behavior.

I have had a 'pack ' of dogs my whole life. Obviously with that situation, you must have order.

[kcsheperd 13]

I will try this method Michelle.. She doesn't do this all the time, just with REALLY good fleshy frozen bones..so We will continue to work on it.. I don't think Payslee is an aggressive tzu, or a mean tzu, but I do agree that she had tendencies of bulliness, and brattiness..lol.. So we will need to work on these issues. The little girls always want to rule the roost! Thanks for all the great tips, I knew you would all have awesome suggestions.. :tapfingers5rg:

[borzoimom 24]

I will try this method Michelle.. She doesn't do this all the time, just with REALLY good fleshy frozen bones..so We will continue to work on it.. I don't think Payslee is an aggressive tzu, or a mean tzu, but I do agree that she had tendencies of bulliness, and brattiness..lol.. So we will need to work on these issues. The little girls always want to rule the roost! Thanks for all the great tips, I knew you would all have awesome suggestions..

I sent you a email with my phone number if you have questions what I described. This can escallate fast if you don't head it off at the pass.

[Seastar 44]

If it bugs you, crate one of them during bone time. Or skip the dang bones.

[berrytzus 6]

This is what I suggest you do. A bone is 'designated " to one dog, and the other dog doesn't 'touch it"- by your dominance. Okay- you have one bone for each dog.

Yup, that's what I said and it works.