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Panic/Dribbling Updated


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Every good Tzu Mom, I'm sure.. wants to raise their kids right. I read all the books.. I take the classes, I try very hard. Maybe TOO hard, lol.. but sometimes, the best plans go awry.. and I feel like Finnley is veering off course from "The Plan."

When someone greets him, he naturally gets super excited. But he also dribbles all over the floor, whether this be at petsmart, Grammy's house, or here at home. I thought he would grow out of it, but he's been with us for almost nine weeks now, and he hasn't. (He's... four months old).

When we leave the house, and leave the boys at home: (which is only once or twice a week, for two, and no more than four hours max), Tucker goes in his kennel, Finn goes in his play pen, they have water, a chew bone, usually a treat, and the TV is left on for them.. but Finn panics and throws a crazy man fit. I've never heard a puppy bellyache like he does. He's done it from the day we bring him home though.. and I started out like 'they say' you should. Put him in. Take him out. Put him in, sit by the play pen. Put him in, walk into the next room, come back.. Take him out. Build it up slowly. I did that. But it doesn't matter, he jumps and shrieks until we drive away and shut the garage door behind us. I don't know what he does while we're gone, but from the moment we open the garage door coming back home, he's carrying on again. I come in, I pick him up, I put on his leash and we go outside to potty immediately, (He's STILL whining and crying and carrying on while I'm holding him, it takes him a little while to settle back down). He's too upset to go potty half the time, so we have to come back out a few minutes later when he's finally calm.

I'm kind of at a loss. Aside from not being desired behavior.. I'm kind of over wiping up dribble, and the panic.. I dunno.. ??? I don't want him to give himself a little puppy heart attack the very few times he's left behind. I've even noticed the last couple days, (when he very rarely gets the leash off, - he's normally tethered to me), he will go in and sit by the door in the utility room and want out. This is weird to me, because that's not the door he goes outside through, so why does he want out there? The car is out there.. he's in the car once a week to go to puppy class, but aside from that, I cant figure out his fascination with the door. My husband and I, and his shih brother are all home, there's no reason why he would need to leave, but he wants out the door? If my husband leaves to run an errand, and I stay home with the dogs, he will throw a fit then too. Also weird, since he's clearly a Mamma's boy.. so I can't figure out why he's soooo upset when my husband leaves.

I want to do the right thing, and "fix this" but I have no idea the right way to go about it. I would love some advice though, if anyone has been there, and can help me take the right steps to reassure him. :dede: Thanks!!

Edited by Whisper
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Amy, I'm sorry you're having so much trouble with the potty training. For the dribbling, it would probably help to have the people who visit totally ignore him at first and wait until he's calm to greet him. There was actually an episode of "It's Me Or The Dog" where a yellow lab was doing this, now that's a LOT of pee, lol! It was one of the older episodes filmed in England. I don't know if any of the clips would be on youtube or not, I'll have to check.

When I leave the house the pups always get a piece of home made jerky in the morning when I go to work and a kong or treatball with goodies inside when I go back to work after lunch. After their potty break when I first get home at lunch they come back in the house and run right for the fridge like they're saying "Ok mom, go back to work now, we want our goodies". If I leave the house without giving them any goodies, they'll bark for a minute or two and that's it.

One of the things I've heard lots of trainers say to do is just walk out the door and when all is quiet even if just for a split second come right back in. And very gradually make the time you're away longer and longer.

Good Luck!

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Fluffalicious

I agree the only way to prevent this unwanted behaviour is to IGNORE the dog completely - no meeting or greeting , in fact no talking to the dog at all ( until he's calm ) . Kirsty

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With the dribbling... Its either a submission thing or an "I'm so excited to see you I can't hold it in!" thing. Is he super excited to meet people? Does he jump up on them? Is he rolling over on his back? The easiest way to fix this is have people stop "greeting" him. Have them ignore him completely and pretend he's not even there. When he calms down, have them get on his level and calmly pet him. Have them refrain from using a high pitched voice and getting him excited again. Its all about keeping the situation calm. It also helps to teach him to automatically sit when meeting a stranger. This is what I did with my TX Blue Lacy. We had problems with the submission peeing when meeting people. So I taught him to automatically sit at my side and I'll have a stranger hold their hand out in front of his face to investigate. If he finds the stranger interesting, he gets a rub kinda on the side of his face. Dogs tend to find being pet on the head to intimidating and will shy away.

As for the fits... What is your behavior like when you leave? Do you talk in a "baby talk" voice? Do you calmly leave or rush out the door? Again, its all about keeping the situation calm. Use a firm, but soft and gentle, voice when talking to him and getting ready to leave. Don't just run out the door like something is wrong. Or it could be an attention thing. I have a client who has a boxer that throws the biggest tantrums when she leaves. She set up a video camera to see what the dog does when she's gone. The dog instantly calms down as soon as the car drives away. We figured out the boxer acts this way because sometimes she gives in and will take the boxer on errands with her. So the boxer figured out, if I have a fit, I get to go with mom. So setting up a video camera might be of some help, to see what happens during the day.

Does Tucker go into his kennel calmly? It may also help to make a big deal and praise Tucker when he goes into his kennel calmly. Finn may see all the extra attention Tucker gets and try to figure out how to get the same attention. This is how I taught Blue, the TX Blue Lacy, how to lay down. When I told Sophie to lay down, I made a big deal about it and gave her like 5 treats. Took Blue about 5 tries to figure out what I wanted and he laid down on command from there on out.

It also sounds like he's figured out how you guys leave, hence the fascination with the door. He could possibly think he gets to go somewhere if he sits at the door. Sophie will stare at her leash when she wants to go walking. They pick up on routines easily. For example, the dogs know when I put on my sneakers, there's a chance that a walk is involved.

Sorry that so long, but I hope it helps some!

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Kae+Gizzy

Sorry to hear your having a few issues Amy, sounds like you have great advice above. Hope things work out for both you and Finn :dede:

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I'm not sure it will help to not have guests talk to Finn until he's calm.. because he starts dribbling just when he SEES them, lol.. (I'm not sure if it's excited or submissive behavior, but if I had to guess, I would say it's excitement). He's happy, wagging his whole bottom, and no, he doesn't roll over his back.

When we leave the house, we don't talk baby talk to him, and we don't rush, but there is a routine, so to speak. Like I mentioned briefly above, Tucker is kenneled, and yes, he goes in on command, and is quite calm about it, he's almost two, so he's used to the drill. Then I take Finn's leash off, and put him in his play pen, give him a treat, (which he won't eat until we're gone), and we leave through the garage door. We've never spontaneous decided to take him with us, once he's in.. so I wouldn't think he thinks that there's another option for him.

He's been in the play pen whenever we leave for the last six weeks. For the first three weeks we had him, he was in the play pen more often. My husband came and went for errands, but I didn't leave during that time. He would throw a fit at first, and whenever we walked near the play pen. We would take him out when we were ready to, but not while he was throwing a fit, so I don't know how or why he's gotten it into his head that we might? It's hard to know how it is that we got to this point, because like I said, since day one bringing him home, he threw a fit in the play pen and has yet to grow out of it. (He sleeps in a play pen at night though, and doesn't make a single peep until he has to potty around eight am though, so I'm completely baffled).

I know he's calm while we're not here though, because out of curiosity, I've had my husband drive out, and shut the garage door, but I stayed on the other side of our front door to listen, and he quiets right down. And a few days ago, I had him stop before we got to the garage, got out and snuck very quietly into the front door, and he was sound asleep, (this was after we had been gone almost two hours). I scared him, and he pee'd everywhere, so it turned out to be a bad idea, lol.. but I know he's calm while we're gone. I want him to get to a place where he's calm when we come and go though too.

Something I find interesting though.. he's in SUCH a panic when we leave or some home, but not a drop of potty in all that bouncing and crying and whining, so I'm confused as to why he can't seem to hold it in when he's happy-excited when we get company. It doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

I'm just not sure what course of action is best to do from here. :blush:

Thanks so much for the advice so far.

I guess we can try to have our company ignore him until he's calm, but I fear the very act of them coming through the door, even quietly is still exciting enough for him to dribble. The panic attack when we leave or come home seems even more impossible to get a handle on though. I'm frustrated.

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Shredder did the piddle thing on occasion when he was excited to see people, he doesn't do that anymore, guess he out grew that ... He still jumps on people though and acts all excited when they come through the door, I just try and get them to ignore him (which is hard if he's jumping on them! ha) ... but at least he doesn't wet on the floor anymore :blush: For him I think it was more a submissive thing as he would also roll on his back and wait for the belly rub ....

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I'm not sure it will help to not have guests talk to Finn until he's calm.. because he starts dribbling just when he SEES them, lol.. (I'm not sure if it's excited or submissive behavior, but if I had to guess, I would say it's excitement). He's happy, wagging his whole bottom, and no, he doesn't roll over his back.

When we leave the house, we don't talk baby talk to him, and we don't rush, but there is a routine, so to speak. Like I mentioned briefly above, Tucker is kenneled, and yes, he goes in on command, and is quite calm about it, he's almost two, so he's used to the drill. Then I take Finn's leash off, and put him in his play pen, give him a treat, (which he won't eat until we're gone), and we leave through the garage door. We've never spontaneous decided to take him with us, once he's in.. so I wouldn't think he thinks that there's another option for him.

He's been in the play pen whenever we leave for the last six weeks. For the first three weeks we had him, he was in the play pen more often. My husband came and went for errands, but I didn't leave during that time. He would throw a fit at first, and whenever we walked near the play pen. We would take him out when we were ready to, but not while he was throwing a fit, so I don't know how or why he's gotten it into his head that we might? It's hard to know how it is that we got to this point, because like I said, since day one bringing him home, he threw a fit in the play pen and has yet to grow out of it. (He sleeps in a play pen at night though, and doesn't make a single peep until he has to potty around eight am though, so I'm completely baffled).

I know he's calm while we're not here though, because out of curiosity, I've had my husband drive out, and shut the garage door, but I stayed on the other side of our front door to listen, and he quiets right down. And a few days ago, I had him stop before we got to the garage, got out and snuck very quietly into the front door, and he was sound asleep, (this was after we had been gone almost two hours). I scared him, and he pee'd everywhere, so it turned out to be a bad idea, lol.. but I know he's calm while we're gone. I want him to get to a place where he's calm when we come and go though too.

Something I find interesting though.. he's in SUCH a panic when we leave or some home, but not a drop of potty in all that bouncing and crying and whining, so I'm confused as to why he can't seem to hold it in when he's happy-excited when we get company. It doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

I'm just not sure what course of action is best to do from here. :(

Thanks so much for the advice so far.

I guess we can try to have our company ignore him until he's calm, but I fear the very act of them coming through the door, even quietly is still exciting enough for him to dribble. The panic attack when we leave or come home seems even more impossible to get a handle on though. I'm frustrated.

You'll get there! I promise! He sounds like my Sophie. She'll do just about anything she can think of attention and is insanely stubborn. This is something he could grow out of when he matures a bit, as well. Since you're calm when you leave and come in, to me it sounds like he's just figured out you're leaving and is trying to do whatever he can to get you to stay. Usually with true separation anxiety, you'll come home to find the dog slobbering everywhere, hurt in some way from trying to get out, dilated eyes, pee everywhere, etc. I think if you just keep ignoring the fits, they'll go away.

If having people ignore him when they come over doesn't help the dribbling, then he should be kept out of sight and away from the new people when they first come in. After everyone gets settled, calmly bring him out and act like the new person is just part of your normal routine. Don't act like they're new or exciting. Then have them talk to him in a calm voice and proceed calmly. How does he behave in puppy class?

Dogs think in weird ways. But, there's always a method to the madness. It may be strange and random and completely out there, but there's always a method. I've heard stories of dogs going nuts when they smelt pizza because their previous owner ate a lot of pizza and was also abusive towards them, having nervous breakdowns when seeing new clothing on their humans for the first time, and other random things. Now that I'm pregnant, Blue has shown a hatred towards bearded men. I'm not quite sure why yet, especially since his first owner had a beard and was nothing but loving towards him. Weirdos... :laughbounce:

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Carolina Girl

I completely feel ya on the pee thing! My Daisy does this when she's excited, scared, upset, etc......It is such a pain in the butt. When she does it, she ends up swishing her tail into it and slinging it everywhere! I think most dogs outgrow this. However, Daisy is 6 years old now. I'm thinking if she hasn't outgrown it by now, she probably won't! We tell people not to talk to her, look at her, or pet her when they come in. It's hard to convince most people not to talk to her....They think I'm being mean! Whatever you do, don't fuss at him when he does it. This can make it worse....

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Thanks guys. :laughbounce: I'm definitely trying to be patient with him. I definitely don't scold him when he dribbles. I hardly get overly angry sounding toward him at all, because I know it doesn't really help anything. We don't GET a lot of company, mostly just my parents, which is probably why it's still exciting when they come over, (maybe) once a week.. sometimes less. We lead a pretty, quiet, lonely, life.. lol, that's why the boys mean so much so me.

There's just several little things that Finn is doing right now that I don't like. For instance, right now, one of my new favorite hated behaviors.. is Finn barking like a mad fiend, when there's no just cause. My husband is out of the house, it's very quiet, Tucker is sleeping on my foot.. but I have a migraine setting in because Finn won't shut up......!! Gah. He's tethered to my ankle, because he's still not potty trained.. and he wants to go play. He has toys, chews, food and water all within leash range. Normally he's barking because Tucker is just out of his reach taunting him, but at the moment, there's no reason why he can't just lay down and be good.

If I had to guess, if I let him go, I'm sure he would run in the kitchen and sit by the garage door.. and/or pace around. He doesn't get to run around the house free much at all, he should be used to this, but lately it seems that he's going to just start barking, non-stop until I let him go, (which, I don't do). ShihTzu's are so darn stubborn, lol.

He behaves pretty good in puppy class, (as long as he's the main focus). MY older shihtzu has a class before him, and Finn sits with his Dad in the corner of the tiny room, a couple feet away and because it's Tucker's turn for the attention he gets mad and will bark at me. I try to ignore him. I've been trying to get Dave to work on the "Shh" command with him, (ie; when he stops barking.. Dave says Shhh, and gives him a tiny treat, but only when he's quiet). It's not working, because he's a hard headed little mule, lol.. but I'm hoping in time, it will work. When it's Finn's turn for class, everything goes great, and Tucker lays down and just watches the class quietly.

I really really hope Finn grows out of these bad habits he seems to have, or is developing... the dribbling, the fits, the barking incessantly. My head hurts, :( ..lol.

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Finn went to the vet today for his big boy shot. Four months and one week, and he weighs nine pounds already. :blush-anim-cl: I always pick the jumbo Tzus, lol.

The vet tech weighed him, and said hello, and he dribbled all over the scale. Dr. Trevor checked his heartbeat, (after I told him about the dribbling problem), and didn't even TALK to him, and he dribbled all over the table. On the way out, I was holding him, and the receptionist just said how adorable he was, and he dribbled down my shirt. It's not cool anymore, lol... and I reaaaaallly wish there was something I could do to get him to quit this. :(

I had to schedule him today for his neuter/hernia/microchipping/rabies shot combo appointment today. It's April 15th, and I'm dreading it already. When I asked, again, if there was any way they could let him pick him up early so he wasn't there overnight, but nope.. no go. They need to make sure their breakfast stays down, they said. I made it on a Friday, so I can at least get him first thing, Saturday. Otherwise, I had to wait until midday on a week day. *sigh* Boo. It feels sooo weird, and awful when they're not home where they should be. At least this time I'll still have Tucker home. When Tucker went in, I had an empty house, and it was gut-wrenching, lol.

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Someone kick me, I'm a failure. lolol. :blush-anim-cl:

We made it sixteen days without a potty accident in the house, so I decided today that Finn had earned a little bit of freedom. I decided to let him roam leash-free for ten whole minutes.....and he poo'd on the carpet. *sigh* I'm so mad at myself and so disappointed in my little dude. I thought he had learned something this month, but now we have to re-set the timer back to zero again.

I also think his panic when we get home is getting worse, and nothing has changed. Today we left him for two hours, because we had a brain injury support group meeting to attend, (once a month). When I got home, I picked him up quietly from his play pen, and he's freaking out, yelping like he's wounded or something, when he's not, and he dribbled all down the front of my shirt.

:) He's never done that before. (While, yes, he dribbled excitedly when someone pet him or talked him outside the house that he hadn't yet met, he would dribble, but not with me.. ON me.. at home). I don't know how to get him to calm down, but we have to do something, it's not neat. I don't want to have puppy pee on me if I can help it, thanks.. lol. I don't know what to do about it though. I don't know WHY he's so dramatic when we leave and come home.

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emmasmom

Amy, just wondering....when do you pick him up after you get home? Right away? I'm assuming you probably do, & IF you are, try waiting for a few minutes until he calms HIMSELF down while still in his pen. After all is calm, don't say a word to him, just pick him up & carry on as usual. It's worth a try! Good luck, sounds like you really have your hands full!

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I thought about that Nancy! But I always worry that we've been gone, and he probably really has to potty, and I want to get him out asap before he dribbles or potties all over his play pen.... But you might be right. I figure it's already a disaster, so next time we leave the house I will let Tucker out first, and wait a minute before letting Finn out. (I just fear.. that he'll want out so badly, that he won't settle soon. But we will definitely see). Thank You for the suggestion, because I'm really desperate for ideas...

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emmasmom

I really think this could be part of the problem....he's so excited you are back home, but he has to learn, he doesn't come out until he's calm. Just walk in the door & totally ignore him....if you have to take Tucker out, don't talk to him in front of Finn either, wait till you are outside, then give Tucker his lovings. By the time you come back in, MAYBE, Finn will have calmed down. Let's hope! :blush-anim-cl:

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Oi! I can't talk to Tucker inside, and I have to take Tuck out to potty and leave Finn in the pen til we get back in? :blush-anim-cl: That will be so hard.. lolol. And I am pretty sure Finn will haaaaaate it.

I wonder.... if instead of waiting to try it for the next time we leave the house, if we should practice a couple times a day. Put him in the playpen.. go outside.. open and close the garage door.. come inside, let Tuck out.. wait quietly for a minute or two, then get Finn.....

Maybe if we do it a couple times a day, every day for the next week or two, then it will be regular, and not such a reason to get all flustered over? :/ What do you think, Nancy?

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emmasmom

I would say it's worth a try. As long as he knows he won't get picked up if he's putting up a fuss! He ONLY gets to come out once he quiets down. I know, it's going to be sooooo hard, but IF it works, it will be so worth it in the long run. I think he's playing you mom!!! :blush-anim-cl:

BTW.....they all do it! Mine included! :)

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I dont know that he's playing with me, unless he's A GREAT little actor, because he genuinely seems panicked, lol.... but you might be right. I think that's a good experiment though, I think I'm going to try it..... right now, lol... so I'll let you know how big of a disaster it is, haha.

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Okay, so I HAD PLANNED on doing my experiment a couple times this afternoon, but we settled for one time. It went like this......

I put on my hoody, and my husband and I put on our shoes. We got a treat for each of the boys, we put Tucker in his kennel, and Finn in his play pen. We left out the side door, opened the garage door, shut the garage door.. and stood on the other side of the door. The only thing we didn't recreate was actually starting the car and driving it out.

We stood near the front door, (he couldn't see us or hear us), and we timed how long he cried. I had previously thought that he settled right down after he knew we were gone, but he didn't. My husband timed him shrieking for a little over seven minutes. :mellow: We waited.

When he was FINALLY quiet.. I opened the garage door, we came in through the side door, I closed the garage door. I let Tucker out of his kennel and sat in the chair next to the play pen, and waited until Finn cried himself out. It.. took... eleven... long.. and painful minutes...... of shrieking and jumping, and panting, and choking, and carrying on. He only paused in the middle long enough to get a drink before he went at it again. After eleven minutes, I could tell he wasn't done, just exhausted, so I grabbed him in a few seconds of quiet to take him outside to potty. It was awful.

I seriously cannot believe he went on and on so long. It does not seem at all practical to do this every time we come home from going somewhere, but we're going to try. :( I'm also going to TRY to do this experiment once a day, or if it's too much for Finn, maybe every other day.. to try and get him used to seeing that his fit doesn't get him taken out any faster, but honestly.. I don't think he cares.. or understands that.

I cut off the first minute.. and the last eight minutes of this video, because that's just.. so.. long, lol.. and it took three hours to upload as it was, but here is a clip of Finn throwing his little tantrum when we came in. (Keep in mind, we were only gone seven minutes, and only that long, because that's how long it took him to stop crying).

Finn's Little Fit

Youtube Video of just ((PART)) of Finn's tantrum :(

If you watch the video, I apologise for the "clutter" look. We put Finn's kennel in front of his play pen, and a box of new pans to the right, lol... because the first several times we left the house, (from him doing tantrums like this one), we'd come home to find his play pen several feet away from where it was supposed to be, and he would have pottied on the floor instead of the potty pad he had in his play pen). Now he doesn't use the potty pad, he doesn't potty in his play pen at all.. but even so, I want the play pen to stay where I put it, lol..... so we have to baracade him in, until the tantrums are behind us. :( I really hope we're able to resolve this issue, but.. as of today, I definitely don't know how. *sigh*

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Carolina Girl

Ohhh, Amy, I can completely sympathize....We have our share of issues here. I have worked with a trainer in my home. Everyone must sit before they can go out. Can Finn sit on command? If not, teach him "sit" with treats first. Then, once he's good at it, have him sit before you pick him up. This will calm mine down. I tell them "sit", "stay", and after about 15 seconds I can take them out. This way, his little mind is working on something else besides getting all excited.

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emmasmom

Amy, I know how hard it is, believe me, but to me anyway, that looks totally like a puppy temper tantrum. If you give in now, it will NEVER change. Finn MUST learn how to calm himself down, IMO. He will soon realize, quiet or sit; then mommy picks me up. Keep up the good work & hang tough.....or tough love, whatever they call it, & you should start seeing better results.

HOPEFULLY! :(

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Amy, you are doing the right thing! That is totally a puppy tantrum and just like toddlers, they need to be taught boundaries. How old is he again? Keep doing what you're doing. I think you mentioned you took him to puppy class? How's he doing on commands? If he's doing really well on basic stuff, then perhaps its time to do something a bit more challenging to give his little puppy brain a workout. Maybe do 2-3, 5 minute training sessions. Sometimes giving them harder stuff to work on wears them out. Don't give up!

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God, it just breaks your heart when they cry like that. You have a challenging puppy--I think puppies and babies are so very cute just because if they weren't, nobody would want them! Trust that he will settle down as he grows up and trusts more and more.

Where did you get this little sweetie?

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Well for firstly.. :( I'm really glad to have people here for support to help me work through our issues, so I thank you.

Nancy, I'm relieved, I guess... in a way, that you think it's only a puppy temper tantrum, and not something more seriously deep-rootedly wrong with him. He's definitely trying my patience. Even though I only sampled three minutes of the video to upload and post here for you guys, that fit went on for well over eleven minutes, I didn't think it would ever end, and I only grabbed him when he stopped yelping to pant and take a little breather. :mellow: I know all that turmoil can't be good for him, and it's certainly not fun for me to watch, but I don't know what else to do with him.

Yes Finn can sit on command! So.. instead of waiting the temper tantrum out, you think I should make him do tricks to get him focused and calm, then remove him from the play pen? Would talking to him when he's freaking out like that reward it? Or would the distraction off-set that? I guess I didn't really think of trying to make him do commands before taking him out. What do you all think? General consensus?

Micah, Finn is 18 weeks old, (or 4.5 months). We've had him ten weeks now. He just graduated from puppy kindergarten last week, and yes, he can sit, lay down, watch me, leave it, and take it on command. We're working on stay and loose leash walking.

We definitely want to start doing more complex things with him. We're going to sign him up for an intermediate class, but not until after his neutering, which isn't for a few weeks. I'll try to glean off Tucker's classes, and work with him on some things until then though if you think it will help. The other night, I started working with him on the "kennel" command, that's definitely one of my favorites that I've taught Tucker anyway.

Paula, lol.. I have thought that same thing SO many times the last few weeks.. That it's a darn good thing that he's so painfully cute, cause otherwise.... *growls* ..I just don't know how we'd make it. He definitely is a challenge. Tucker was such a dream with almost everything.. no tantrums, potty trained right away. And Finn is the total opposite in most all ways imagineable.

Edited to remove the breeder's wedbsite. :( Whoopsie. Didn't know it was a no no.

Edited by Whisper
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Oh geez, I'm sorry for asking you--you haven't been around long enough to know we aren't supposed to name specific breeders unless in private messages. I should have mentioned that! My bad. Have you contacted the breeder about your concerns? She may have some good ideas for you.

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