Dog Training - "Premack Recall".

[babybluegirl 3,381]

Hi there,

So, my husband, Riley and I have started a new dog training place and have now been there twice (Sundays at 9:30am). Last weekend (not yesterday) we went and the instructor gave us a sheet of paper to read and do during the week. It's called: "Premack Recall" and basically it's about getting a good recall regardless of the distractions. We find that Riley will come to us, but certainly not 90%. Obviously no chance if he's off lead over the park and is distracted by seeing other dogs he'd like to play with etc.

Our instructor asked what we feed Riley on and I said that I homecook for him and gave him examples, i.e. different meats with vegetables and dry kibble and basically he was against what I was doing and saying that I know I only want the best for Riley but I'm wasting all my time cooking him delicious foods, but dog food really is fine and the best way to go for Riley. Equally he was saying that if his grade of food is high (because of the homecooked food we give him), then his dog treats are going to seem "meaningless" and so much lower in comparison as you can't really up it too much as he's already at the top of the delicious food chain. He had concerns that Riley doesn't really need us, whereas in the group there's other dogs that constantly have their eye on their owner and trying to please them for treats etc. (We can't always get Riley's attention).

Some of what he said did make sense, but I really didn't like the fact that he was saying dog food is the only way to go, rather than supporting what I do feed him on and giving me advice to help. He certainly made a mark on my husband, so much so that he wanted to go past this particular place on the way home from dog training to buy the said food that the instructor mentioned/recommended My husband and I had words basically saying that you can't just chop and change on what one person says!!! It's getting to the point where I just don't know what to do anymore (all I want to do is what's best for Riley). If dogs survived years ago on table scraps, I'm sure what I'm giving Riley isn't any worse for him. I just hope I'm feeding him okay, at least he's getting kibble in case I'm really depriving him of everything he needs?!?

If I went back to just dog food, I'm not sure if that's a good idea? Riley's been used to this "homecooked" food for about 8 weeks now (not quite sure when I changed him exactly) but whatever I do, I need to stick with it as it's really not good to keep changing his diet based on what everyone with a different opinion keeps telling me.

Anyway, got a bit sidetracked, but has anyone done this "Premack Recall" and what word did you use? I can type the instructions/scan it in

Thanks for listening.

babybluegirl

9:53am

[babybluegirl 3,381]

Here's the sheet we were given last Sunday 16 November 2014:

Premack Recall - 16.11.14.pdf

babybluegirl

10:46am

[Pawz4me 6,802]

Very random thoughts (it's early here and the caffeine hasn't kicked in yet) --

I think your trainer probably is not very skilled/experienced if he's so reliant on treats. Good trainers have lots of options for motivating dogs, and it sounds as if this one doesn't. Some very successful trainers don't believe in using food in training at all. Some dogs, regardless of what they're fed for meals, simply aren't food motivated and so treats don't work. A good trainer will know how to work around that. It sounds as if yours doesn't, and he's using Riley's lack of interest in food as an excuse for his own lack of training knowledge and skills. Blaming the dog/owner instead of his own lack of ideas. Now that's a different view point your husband might or might not like. LOL!

As far as changing foods -- Ehh. I don't think it's a problem at all. Not the least little bit. But that's for dogs who don't have sensitive tummies. I change my dogs' food all the time. Always have, with many dogs over 36 years of pet ownership and fostering. It's never been a problem. At all.

I also think it's not always fair to compare dogs in training classes. Different breeds are bred to have different traits. The sporting breeds in particular are bred to work very closely with people, and eons of breeding for that makes them much more inclined to want to please their people. And so it makes them (in general) much easier to train. Other breeds have an undeserved (IM0) reputation for being stubborn. That's not always a fair assessment. Many breeds have been bred for eons to work alone or far ahead of a hunter/handler, and thus they've been bred to be independent, think for themselves and make their own decisions. It makes them more challenging to train, and so people label them as "stubborn" as an excuse. The smartest dog I ever had was a beagle, one of the notoriously "stubborn" breeds. She was an absolutely brilliant dog, but she had little interest in pleasing me just because. I had to make her understand why she would benefit by doing what I wanted her to do. And I think Shih Tzus have a similar temperament.

A solid recall in a distracting situation is a very advanced skill. It's something that a dog and handler would typically work on for many months, even with an eager to please breed. It's not something that's going to be developed in a week or two. If your trainer is giving you that impression then IMO it's just another indication of his lack of knowledge.

ETA -- I just skimmed your sheet. I've never heard of that way of teaching a recall. It seems very strange to me, but possibly that's because it's new. Typically the way I teach a recall is to start with a six foot leash. Allow puppy to get to the end of the leash and say "come" or whatever word you want to use. If puppy comes then he gets a reward (treat, attention, a favorite toy, etc.). If he doesn't come then you gently reel him in with the leash. Once he understands what "come" means then you work on a minor distraction. With the dog still on the leash you toss a toy in his direction and give the command with the goal that he'll ignore the toy and come to you. If he doesn't you gently reel him in. When he can reliably work with a minor distraction on the leash then you begin working with a long line (twenty feet or so). You repeat the process -- first getting him to come from that distance w/o a distraction and then with a distraction. Once he can come reliably on a long line then you move to another location. If you've been working inside you go outside to a low distraction area. And you repeat the process, very gradually building in distance and level of distraction. It can take weeks to move from one step to the next (both in terms of distance and level of distraction).

Edited November 24, 2014 by Pawz4me

[Sophie's Haven 17,464]

Is this costing you money?............the 6 foot leash and a handful of treats is a lot cheaper. I personally would have taken this gentlemen for a walk having his full attention and maybe, just maybe a treat would have been his reward at the end of OUR training. My guys as you well know do not eat dog food.........my 7 who range from 4 to 11 years of age are allowed to run free on the property when we go out for our afternoon romp, I have a pocket full of bite size treats and when they come when called they get rewarded.....and let me tell you right now with all the new smells due to the cool weather getting their attention is almost impossible......the 11 year old knows I am the one with the treat pocket and she follows me everwhere......I agree with Pawz4me........it will take time....but you can do it.....I was having steam coming out my ears as I was reading your post!!!!

[Parker14 290]

Not all dogs are food motivated, I have not done any obedience training with my Tzu yet, but I did with my Yorkie. She is NOT food motivated. She is very picky with treats too. I bought so many different types of treats and the only one she likes are milkbones. I tried using these at training, but she wanted nothing to do with him in class so I had to find a different motivation. Turns out she was more praise motivated. Once I started giving her lots of praise (over excitement and kisses, etc.) and practicing this at home she was a completely different dog. She was actually only one of about 3 puppies that passed her basic obedience puppy class. I loved the instructor because she was understanding that all dogs are different and even gave ideas to motivate dogs, not just with treats. She also let you use a different command if it was better for you and your pup. For example, "down" just didn't work for Lexi to lay down because that is the word I always used to get down off of someone, so I used "lay down" instead. Some instructors think all dogs work the same way and don't put into consideration that just like people, all dogs learn differently.

[Summerangel 18,997]

Here's the sheet we were given last Sunday 16 November 2014:

Premack Recall - 16.11.14.pdf

babybluegirl

10:46am

I haven't heard of this before. The dog trainer that advised us, talked about using a long leash and treats.

[Vicki 8,173]

I grew up in the times we only used praise as treats when training dogs. When any of my guys are on leash, they have NO interest in taking a treat. They do respond well to praise though. When off leash and home, they are very excited to get any treat though.

Go figure!

Vicki

[babybluegirl 3,381]

Thanks everyone for your replies, it's good to hear from others, but on the other side it just confuses me even more! lol.

I think my husband and I are going to try the sheet (as it's our homework) and I guess it can't hurt (we've bought frankfurter sausages as his "wow treat") and we'll take it from there. Again, I'm not sure if the instructor was expecting us to accomplish this task in just a week, or just to start it now, but it's an ongoing task. Will ask when we next attend the training this Sunday.

I totally understand all your comments, especially the fact you shouldn't compare breeds and their characteristics etc. I'm also sticking with what we normally feed Riley on, we're not changing because of what this one instructor has said! After messaging my original post, I did contact my breeder and she too wasn't happy that after two visits to this new dog training club that we're attending, he's already trying to change Riley's diet. If it works and Riley's eating it, why change?!?

So, we're sticking with Riley's homecooked food that I give him, because it works We'll start trying this Premack Recall sheet as we've been given it and as we've bought the frankfurter sausages (on the way home from the dog training the other weekend) we'll go from there and see Maybe this might work for Riley seeing as it's a treat he's NEVER had before?!?

About the sheet: What I don't understand is why you have to say a word Riley's not heard before, shouldn't it just be "Riley Come" and he comes and he gets his reward?!? The instructor asked the person next to us to demonstrate, and he said "cookie" and he got his dog's attention. (The treat wasn't a cookie, by the way). You just need to use a word that you don't mind calling out loud, i.e. so it can't be an embarrassing/swear word etc.

Interesting though about you all mentioning about doing this task with a long lead... At Puppy Training when we went, we were taught to stand 6 foot away from each other, i.e. husband and I. One of us have Riley in front of us, then the other person without Riley calls for him "Riley come", then Riley is supposed to go to that person calling for him and gets his treat. Then the other person without Riley says "Riley come" and then Riley is meant to go to that person for a treat. So you keep repeating this, back and forth. We did this in class and then was told to practice this at home. By week four I think, we were then trying to do it the length of the church hall (where the classes were). So, this is basically what this sheet is really i.e. calling and getting a treat.

Will keep you updated...

babybluegirl

9:34am

[babnaw 1,391]

I understand the trainer's point that if Riley always gets super yummy stuff then he won't be as motivated by treats, but I think for most dogs there is usually something that they absolutely love that is a great reward for them, whether it is liver treats (my dog's favourite) or pieces of cheese, or praise, or a particular toy. My dog gets table scraps (healthy ones) regularly, but he still goes nuts for liver treats, cheese and eggs especially. I wouldn't change his feeding schedule, but just find what his favourite rewards are that motivate him the most.

I've read before about using a word you don't use often for a reliable "come" because sometimes dogs learn to ignore a lot of commands when they are distracted, but you want to have a word that gets their attention quickly and reliably for safety situations. So it's good for them to know "come" but maybe have a whistle or "danger!" that also gets them to come. Mr. T's recall currently sucks (it's about 50/50 whether he will come or not) but as another poster said, recall is something you have to work on regularly for quite some time and sometimes dogs will "forget" when they go through their adolescence phase.

[Vicki 8,173]

How is the training going? It's been a week!

Hope you've mastered it!

Vicki

[babybluegirl 3,381]

How is the training going? It's been a week!

Hope you've mastered it!

Vicki

Thanks for your message Riley, husband and I went to dog training on Sunday and learnt some more things (see my original Hello From UK, New Dog Owner With 16 week old Shih Tzu, here) for that.

I talked to the instructor after the class about the Premack Recall sheet I got two weeks ago, and ironed out any questions I had as I wasn't 100% sure on certain things and didn't want to start doing this with Riley in case we were doing it all wrong and made things worse between training class. Anyway, we now know what we're doing and so we're going to start the sheet soon... famous last words lol.

Vicki: by the way, "Premack Recall" is meant to be an ongoing homework task and not to be accomplished in a week! I asked the instructor how long roughly would it take to master this and he said about 6 weeks

I'll keep you posted how we get on with this, plus the tidying of toys, lol (eventually).

babybluegirl

1:37pm

[Pawz4me 6,802]

I've read before about using a word you don't use often for a reliable "come" because sometimes dogs learn to ignore a lot of commands when they are distracted, but you want to have a word that gets their attention quickly and reliably for safety situations.

I think that applies to all commands.

The first dog I seriously trained I made a whopper of a mistake by making "okay" his release word. I didn't put much thought into it, and w/o much thought it seemed as reasonable as any other word I could have chosen. Later into the training process I realized choosing it was a really bad idea. Having a dog in a down stay while you're cooking dinner and talking with your kids or when you've got a room full of company and having to very consciously avoid using the word "okay" is no fun at all.

[babybluegirl 3,381]

I think that applies to all commands.

The first dog I seriously trained I made a whopper of a mistake by making "okay" his release word. I didn't put much thought into it, and w/o much thought it seemed as reasonable as any other word I could have chosen. Later into the training process I realized choosing it was a really bad idea. Having a dog in a down stay while you're cooking dinner and talking with your kids or when you've got a room full of company and having to very consciously avoid using the word "okay" is no fun at all.

LOL: I can see the big mistake there! That's why you have to say a word you don't use much, racking my brain to think of a good word that I don't mind yelling out loud

babybluegirl

3:05pm

[Vicki 8,173]

Thanks for your message Riley, husband and I went to dog training on Sunday and learnt some more things (see my original Hello From UK, New Dog Owner With 16 week old Shih Tzu, here) for that.

I talked to the instructor after the class about the Premack Recall sheet I got two weeks ago, and ironed out any questions I had as I wasn't 100% sure on certain things and didn't want to start doing this with Riley in case we were doing it all wrong and made things worse between training class. Anyway, we now know what we're doing and so we're going to start the sheet soon... famous last words lol.

Vicki: by the way, "Premack Recall" is meant to be an ongoing homework task and not to be accomplished in a week! I asked the instructor how long roughly would it take to master this and he said about 6 weeks

I'll keep you posted how we get on with this, plus the tidying of toys, lol (eventually).

babybluegirl

1:37pm

Thanks for the clarification. I believe with my Shih Tzu, training is always an ongoing task! They may quickly learn what they're "supposed" to do, but doing it is completely relavent to "if they're in the mood", or What's in it for ME?

Gotta love 'em!

Vicki

[Summerangel 18,997]

Thanks for the clarification. I believe with my Shih Tzu, training is always an ongoing task! They may quickly learn what they're "supposed" to do, but doing it is completely relavent to "if they're in the mood", or What's in it for ME?

Gotta love 'em!

Vicki

Hehe , I've already noticed that with mine I find that quality quite adorable, just as well really!!! Lol

[babybluegirl 3,381]

I've just witnessed Riley putting away his toy lol.  I thought of you immediately Vicki!

Obviously a fluke, but I have the proof in a video.  I was just videoing Riley as he was busy rummaging in his toy box and I then witnessed it   I'm not sure how I can upload the video though as I've just gone into my Photobucket account and apparently I'm on 100% full

babybluegirl

3:41pm

[PipsMom 34,988]

Your more than welcome to use our forum Photobucket site Alex

http://s1288.photobucket.com/user/seethelove1/library/?sort=3&page=1

[babybluegirl 3,381]

Your more than welcome to use our forum Photobucket site Alex

http://s1288.photobucket.com/user/seethelove1/library/?sort=3&page=1

If I've done it correclty, when I click on your link above it takes me to the Photobucket website, but it too says "You have used 100% of your storage".

babybluegirl

4:24pm

[PipsMom 34,988]

I know I've had problems with Photobucket for the past week but they finally got it sorted....I don't get those messages and I use it daily.

Send me the video by email, as a attachment and I'll load it one way or another...I always have backup plans for pictures or videos ....we'll see if it's your phone or the site giving off the error message.