Help this novice at house training....PLEASE!

[Debi Tzu 767]

She just won't go outside. We've had some success, just not sure if it is a coincidence or what.

She drips when she is excited...about to be removed from the kennel, for example. However she is one stubborn girl. She just will not pee or poop outside. She sniffs the outside area, including the poo I smeared on it (from her in house accident) and the paper towels I used to wipe up the inside pee. After a sniff test, she promptly lays down or finds leaves to play with or my toes to chew.

Her inside peeing... After she peed a couple times on the fireplace tile, I put a pad there. She went back and peed twice. My daughter was watching her and said she didn't see her go pee. So no chance to correct. This morning she was outside twenty minutes. Nothing. So we went back inside because she wouldn't do anything but lay there.

Back inside. Was with me the entire time. I didn't tether her to me though. Dumb me. As soon as I was brushing my teeth, she ran out of the bathroom and peed on my new (as in Friday) throw rug. Took her back out for another twenty. Nothing. Came in.

Ten minutes later while I was taking breakfast off the stove, she ran to to another rug and, in a blink of an eye, dropped her little gift for me on the rug. Still was progress....it was right in front of the door we've been using exclusively to go outside. Coincidence or ??

Help. She can really hold her morning pee, especially. Today it was 40 minutes from the time she woke up.

And she likes her crate. I've got it portioned off so she truly can just turn around and lay down. She peed in it her first night, but not since. I stayed home from work today, to see how she would in the crate all day, so to speak. I found I had to put a blanket over the front so she could not see me in here working. Soon as I do that, each time, she quiets down and goes to sleep. First time today she slept three hours. Then she got restless, I think, because I was making way more noise, than just quietly working on my iPad. Anyway, three hours was awesome for her first time being confined to the crate during the day. No accidents except for the little drips when I was u latching it. Took her outside three different times after I let her out. Nuttin. Again, smells her previous good works and then just plays or lays there on the pads...poo smear and all. She does like sniffing the area, but then nothing.

I've decided no free play time. She can be out to play specifically with us or be specifically with us, laps, grooming, etcbut otherwise, it's in the crate so no free roaming at all. is that a good idea?? Or will it be too much confinement in such a small area until she is house trained?

Help needed. I've never trained one from the start! Thank goodness she is at least four months old!!

Edited January 26, 2015 by Debi Tzu

[Pawz4me 6,802]

Are you using pee pads? If so, I'd take a used one outside and weight it down with some rocks or flower pots or something.

If you're not using pee pads, take some of the paper towels you use to clean up accidents outside.

Anything you can do to associate pee smell with outside should help a little.

[Debi Tzu 767]

Are you using pee pads? If so, I'd take a used one outside and weight it down with some rocks or flower pots or something.

If you're not using pee pads, take some of the paper towels you use to clean up accidents outside.

Anything you can do to associate pee smell with outside should help a little.

Yes. I have weighted down 2 pee pads outside, side by side. When she had her poo accident inside, I took a bit of it and smeared it on the outside pad. I also used paper towels to clean up her pee accident inside. Took those paper towels and weighted those down on the outside pads, on the edge. She sniffs, congratulates herself or something, and then either walks away, she can't go far....like two feet...or she just lays down on the pee pad.

[Pawz4me 6,802]

I personally believe that's going to be way too much confinement, It could be many months until she's fully house trained. To confine a dog for that much and for that long isn't right IMO. At the very least she should be allowed some free play time for a few minutes after she's done her business. Plus IMO if you rely so much on a crate you're really not teaching her to be house trained. You're just teaching her to hold it while in the crate. That won't necessarily translate to hold it when you're roaming free in the house.

What about getting an ex-pen and setting it up in your kitchen or somewhere that an accident won't be a big deal?

Remind me about how old she is? The general rule for puppies holding it during the day is one hour for each month. So a two month old puppy could reasonably be expected to keep their crate clean and dry for two hours, a three month old for three hours, etc. But remember that's a general rule. Some dogs will be able to hold it longer and some less. And that's during the day. You can expect longer at night.

Personally, when I'm house training a pup I aim to get them outside at least every 30 minutes while they're awake during the day. Yes, it's a ton of work. But it sets the puppy up for success, and usually you can lengthen the time between outside visits fairly quickly.

Are you working on leash training yet? If not I'd get right on that and start leash walking her. I simply wouldn't let her decide to lay down outside, but would keep her moving on leash (of course allowing her to stop and sniff here and there to find the right spot). Walking encourages elimination. Some pups just need a bit of help to learn that.

ETA: The dribbling may be the beginning of excitement/submissive urination. And that can become quite a problem. But it can usually be dealt with if you adopt the right attitude (i.e., calm greetings, don't loom over puppy, etc.). You might want to do a bit of reading up on it so you can see if it sounds likely and so you can start doing what you can to lessen it.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Pawz4me

[Debi Tzu 767]

I would not confine her after she has done her business, just until she does, if that makes sense? For example, I take her out in the morning upon waking. If she doesn't pee, then put her back in the crate for 10 min or so. Try again. Repeat if necessary. Over and over....hopefully, not too many times till she finally does her business. I would then praise her lavishly and give her little bits of cooked chicken.

She is 4 months old, so she will be in the kennel while I am at work till lunch time. 8:30 till 11:30. I would come home at lunch, take her out. Pee. Cuddle time and let her play till I have to go back at 12:30. Put her back in the kennel. Mariksa gets home from school at 3:30 so she would repeat the process then.

She would then either be tethered to us, if we are busy, out on another walk with us, in our laps or playing with us the rest of the evening. She would all have free play in a small are in our family room...about 8 foot square. She would go back in the kennel at bed time. If we go somewhere, other than work or school, she would go with us.

Last night she went in and out of her kennel on her own for naps. She'd walk in, move her blanket around, lay down and go to sleep. Around 11pm i put her back in, shut the door. She laid down and was asleep in a minute or two. Slept all night. No accident. that is part of why I was so surprised she was up 40 minutes this AM before peeing.

What would you have me change? I don't want her to just pee willy nilly where ever she wants. I also don't know if just having a pee pad in a large play area is going to teach her to pee outside. And why would just having the pad laying there teach her to always use it? What happens later when we go where there are no pee pads? To me, the pee pad in the beginning of teaching her to go outside is to just give her a visual (allow her to smell where pee is located...where it is suppose to be) so she starts to associate peeing with why I took her outside. Her breeder said they understand a set place and a schedule much better than free will.

My problem is simply she has not once peed or poo'd outside because she holds it forever... So I know I am doing something wrong.

[Pawz4me 6,802]

As I said before, I would walk her on leash. That's the cure for her laying down outside, and most likely will greatly help cure her wanting to hold it. Walking stimulates both urination and defecation. At four months old she's either fully vaccinated or close to it, so you can walk her in your neighborhood soon. Nothing gets most dogs to "go" like smelling where other dogs have already gone.

Crating her until she does her business is fine. Popping her back in the crate if you take her outside and she doesn't go is fine. When you initially posted that I got the impression you planned to crate her all the time until she's reliably trained since you said "no free play time" and then mentioned laps and grooming. I thought you meant pretty much no time on the floor. But you've got the right idea -- some supervised play time after she goes.

[Debi Tzu 767]

We will do the walk thing.

[Marlene 14,113]

My specialty and favorite thing when fostering is for puppies. Call me stupid but I can't get enough of fat little tummies, tiny white toenails

and of course puppy breath.

My strategy has always been:

Immediately upon waking after night time, nap time - it's outside.

Again immediately after eating drinking - outside.

After a play session - outside.

In the car for a couple of hours - stop for a pee break.

If you can leave a door or dog flap open so they can get outside whenever they want - I like to leave water out there. They go out for a drink and mosey around and usually pee.

I don't adhere to the leash theory as I kinda fight that with my Nazi dog-walking husband. I don't want them to learn that

elimination can only happen on a "leash walk".

I have logged hundreds of miles walking around our small back yard with puppy following at my heels - making loop-de-loops smelling things and just "moving" until pee/poo happens. At that point I quietly but exuberantly tell them what a GOOD dog they are and reward with affection and a treat.

I've never had trouble housebreaking a puppy. It just seems I always have a foster puppy during the rainy season :-(

[Debi Tzu 767]

Well guess who else is naughty, besides Sara's dogs. Molly! I took her out so many times in the last here days. Not once has she peed outside. Tonight, starting about 4:30 we took three different walks. First was 45 minutes. She chased leaves, sniffed the fire hydrant so much the paint was about to come off, but nothing. Took her out for a second walk. 30 minutes. Nothing, except she was starting to get the hang of walking with a leash. Last walk another 45 minutes. This after a trip to Ankeny, 20 minutes away, where she rode beautifully in the back seat, stayed in her bed (with seat belt harness). Brought her in after that last 45 minute walk in the dark. Mind you, no pee since around mid morning today. She was sooooo tired. Just flopped and laid there on the floor. I came over & put her on my lap. I get up a bit later to shut off the oven. Told my daughter to watch her. Daughter says, mom she just peed all over the couch. She watched her all right.

I have my alarm set for two hours earlier than usual so we can try the outdoor walking again. She does like her trips outside.

I feel if she would just even dribble a little bit outside, I would at least feel like I am on the right path. . I am constantly checking her too. Picking her up and feeling her bottom just to see if she had peed and I missed it. Nope. She holds it like a champ.

So she's not peed by bringing her outside to a specific spot nor via walking. ::::head hanging:::: I really feel bad.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Debi Tzu

[Marlene 14,113]

Just want to give you a big hug.

After having big dogs (Boxers) for 30+ years - that is where my experience lies.

During all those years I have heard that small/toy breeds are very hard to housebreak.

My first lil guy, "foster failure Shorty G" has been very good, having only 2-3 accidents when he first came here.

My latest small dog - my foster Snickers is "pretty good" when taken out regularly after waking, eating, before bed and a couple of mid morning mid afternoon walks.

BUT - if is not "drained" regularly - he will "mark" on wall corners, furniture legs.

But Snickers is 9 years old and lived with a senior gentleman who had Parkinsons - which is why he was surrendered to rescue.

He probably didn't have the kind of outside potty training he needed and wanted for the last several years.

[Marlen 5,860]

Unfortunately, I can't help much Both of mine learned to potty outside right away. Luca especially is a dream, he's been using the pee pads from day 2, not a single accident and when he went out at the age of 2,5 months (just a small walk outside the house) he peed and pooped...

Only think I can think of is, give her lots of water, keep her kenelled for 1-2 hours, and take her out. Do not go in the house till she pees (yes, even if it takes 1 hour). You don't have to walk her for so long, no, not at all. Just keep her out till she can't keep it anymore She'll do it... eventually.

Try to be calm, try a potty training spray instead, there are various brands, ask for a mild one, that won't hurt her nose

[Debi Tzu 767]

She did it!!!!

Outside !!!!

On her morning walk!!

And it only took one 30 minute walk !!!

Ok, so she only peed, but I can live with that as a first victory. We came back and she was full of herself she decided hopping after the cat was her treat. Of course, kitty retreated and I had to bring Molly to the other side of the house, back to the family room. I fed her breakfast and then we played chase the ball for 20 minutes or so. Took her back out. Crap. No pun intended. All the neighbors had cars running and people were coming in and out, so she was quite distracted. After 45 minutes we came back in and she promptly ....3 minutes...pooped. Silly dog.

She gets a red ribbon today.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Debi Tzu

[Missysmom 24,975]

Yay good girl Molly! Great job Debi, we Knew you could do it!!!

[Pawz4me 6,802]

Celebrate the small victories and try to ignore the small setbacks.

She'll get there!

[Vicki 8,173]

Sounds like you finally have made some progress with Molly. It just takes time and LOTS of effort!

Do you happen to know if Molly was kept in one of those elevated, mesh bottomed crates at her breeders?

If so, that might be part of her problem in learning about going outside. Could also be a reason why she moves her bedding away and sleeps on the flooring of her new crate.

Vicki

[baby 4,238]

Sounds like you finally have made some progress with Molly. It just takes time and LOTS of effort!

Do you happen to know if Molly was kept in one of those elevated, mesh bottomed crates at her breeders?

If so, that might be part of her problem in learning about going outside. Could also be a reason why she moves her bedding away and sleeps on the flooring of her new crate.

Vicki

Vicky, may i.ask,what is mesh? Merci,thank u

[Vicki 8,173]

Vicky, may i.ask,what is mesh? Merci,thank u

Sure Baby.... Many of the Show Dogs here in the US are kept in these types of crates to protect their coats. (Not mine!)

They learn to do all their "business" in the crate and it just falls through the mesh, either 1" x 1" square, or 1" x 6" (I think).

Here's a picture I swiped from a website:

Vicki

[baby 4,238]

It seem very convenient for big showhomes, its like toilet, i have xpen, its open on top, i sometimes keep them there, for few minutes after bath when iam working on other babies . My breeder, had open roof pen, but dogs pooped on pads,the pen had an opening and steps so they can walk over the designed litterbox covered with pads. In my home they use my guest bath as toilet, i have litter box covered with pads. Its bigger than a cats litter box. They sleep like this..hehe. thank u vicky.

Edited January 27, 2015 by baby

[baby 4,238]

Btw, i bought a crib for babies, its foldable i bring at hotel sometimes,..but the boys hate being confined, so i judt let them loose, they dont bite each other tho, i trained them not to.

[Vicki 8,173]

Well, they do work, but I still prefer to have my guys free.

Kinda reminds me of that "judge" we were talking about last week that had all his dogs confiscated. That's the type of pens he had his in, and there were pictures too. Though in the pictures, the pads below them sure did need replacing.

I "litter box" is completely different in MHO. Just have to clean it once in a while like with a cat.

Love the picture of your baby all wrapped up. How many hours a day to you spend in just wrapping yours?

Vicki

[Vicki 8,173]

Btw, i bought a crib for babies, its foldable i bring at hotel sometimes,..but the boys hate being confined, so i judt let them loose, they dont bite each other tho, i trained them not to.

Now I'd just love to see a picture of them all in THAT! That sounds precious!

Vicki

[baby 4,238]

I dont confine mine either, its not style here this kind of crate. they sleep on their bed. And use litter box, i used the cat litter box but when they grew up, i made a bigger one,

No, its not same pen as that judge, it doesnt have a raised bottom, its like children crib, but they go to a special designed box with pads. Its funny coz they seem like cats.lol. butt wrap, not so long, just few minutes. Its very easy, its also tidy.

[VanSwssAlmd 3,211]

If I can offer you any advice that I think will help, its this. Do not bring her back inside until she has done her business, especially when you KNOW she has to go. Molly just hasn't figured out that outside is her potty. Once she does, it will be a whole lot easier. Petal, being older, still took about a week before she figured out that we potty outside (being that she was used to going in her grated crate). At first she would just play and play. But I was persistent and stayed outside till she went. Now she knows and will usually potty within 5 minutes of when we go out. Also, keep repeating a key word while you are outside. I use "go potty". Eventually they learn to go on queue and will know what you are expecting of them. And of course lavish the praise on them when they do what you want.

I know Iowa weather sucks and its cold out..but persistence and a routine is key here. And it sounds like you are on the right track. Until Molly is regularly going outside (when she knows outside is a potty), I would not give her free roam of the house and would not let her on the furniture. Its too easy for them to go when you aren't looking and then you aren't able to discipline. And then they don't learn.

Oh..one other thing I remember reading and it seems to work. When you take her out. Take her to the same spot every time. And don't move around. Just stand there. If you aren't moving around. They are less inclined to play. But I would encourage her to move with a gentle pull on the leash. I'm not sure if you are going to have her potty on her walks or in a spot in your yard. But I would try this till she is going reliably in the spot you want her to. Make sense? I dunno. It worked for both Gizmo and Petal as they like to gawk ALOT. Keeping them moving takes their mind of everything else and gets their bowels moving.

Anyway...just some advice based on my experience. Hope it helps!

Edited January 27, 2015 by VanSwssAlmd

[Vicki 8,173]

I wasn't referring to your setup with my comment that it was the same the judge.....was using.

I WAS referring to the picture of the crate with the mesh bottom that I'd posted from another sight.

Sorry for any confusion.

Vicki

[VanSwssAlmd 3,211]

I dont confine mine either, its not style here this kind of crate. they sleep on their bed. And use litter box, i used the cat litter box but when they grew up, i made a bigger one,

No, its not same pen as that judge, it doesnt have a raised bottom, its like children crib, but they go to a special designed box with pads. Its funny coz they seem like cats.lol. butt wrap, not so long, just few minutes. Its very easy, its also tidy.

I would love to litter box train mine for when it is raining or snowing. They get so dirty and neither one likes to go out in the rain. Wonder how hard it would be on almost adult dogs.