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Dominance Problems in a 4 year old


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Mia-Bee-Uh

Hello! It's been some time since I've posted but I need some advice!

Starting last year we’ve been having dominance problems with Mia. I’ve read allll the articles and I’ve started doing alllll the things but she’s still a little witch a lot of the time.


Okay here’s the long part:
She guards the coffee table in the living room. She thinks she owns under that table and she keeps her toys and stuff there and she'll always hide under it. Also in the same room she sits on top of the couch to overlook her puppy domaine, so we haven’t been letting her on the furniture. A lot of articles say to “take back” the furniture they think the own by sitting on it or whatever but I can’t sit under the coffee table and it says not to sit on the floor with her so I’m not sure how to deal with that..I’m going to take her toys “away” today and just give them to her to play a little and then take them back so she knows they’re mine.


We’ve started making her walk next to us on walks instead of leading us.


We’re TRYING to only let her go potty outside right where we tell her to. (She’s so slow at going and sometimes we give her the command and she walks around a bit before going..wonder if that counts)


We only feed her after we eat and we make her sit, lay, high five, and then we say “okay” as her release word so she can start eating.

She rarely comes when called. (Been really working on this- it's hard because she isn't very treat or praise motivated. Also she KNOWS the command she's just ignoring everyone).


She stays in her crate all night so she’s not roaming the living room like she wants to.


Lastllly if someone touches her (boyfriend and dad usually) or moves her when she doesn’t want to be (mostly in the living room) she growls really meanly and snaps at them. This behavior is very new. Last night she wouldn’t come when called so I reached under the coffee table to get her and she bit me!! She just put her teeth lightly on me but still that’s not acceptable!


She’s just a dog and we would never get rid of her but she is just so damn stubborn I could really use some advice. I think it could be that when she was a puppy we did these things always but then got lax.

 

thanks for any help!

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minabey

No help here but just want to say, I feel you. Monkey also takes a looooong time when called. He just ignores me but when I use ANGRY VOICE, his hearing is suddenly clear. We also don't let him roam freely because he marks in the living room and is so sneaky fast that we don't catch it immediately if we don't keep an eye on him. Treats doesn't work as well but he does seem to respond a bit to praise. We haven't experience any growling when he is touched by anyone because he dodges any attempts of anyone trying to pet him especially on the top of his head.

I did experience a warning bite from him once (teeth on my skin, no pressure) when I reached for him under the bed for the dreaded bath. I told him no and he seemed apologetic. Since then, made sure he never gets an opportunity to do that again. I don't even try to call him in this situation because he wouldn't come so as not to reinforce that habit. We blocked entrance under the bed. If he's under the table, I move the chairs and get in there beside him and encourage him to go out from there. 

I also want to know if "taking the furniture back" will work.

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Mia-Bee-Uh

Glad to hear I'm not alone! Yeah I guess she gave me a warning bite too! I want to block under the coffee table but I'm not sure what would fit to block her. 

I always try the angry voice and she still doesn't care. She stares at me hah!! She's been a little better lately...it's strange if you're out of view (like in another room) she's more likely to come to you. If you're right in front of her and she can see you she ignores you/hides under the table siiiiiigh. :/

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Marlene

If you can live without it for awhile.......I would deal with the coffee table issue by removing it.  "Out of sight - out of mind" - as you would do with a toddler who was messing with something he shouldn't.  Try it for a month (or longer if you can hack it) and I'll bet when you put it back it will have lost it's "magic".

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Crinkly

When you call her (and she ignores you) are you standing square and facing her?  Cos that is threatening body language, in Dog.  Plus the angry voice will seem threatening too.

I don't ever ever ever tell my two off.  I ignore bad behaviour, and reward good, and have always found that the bad behaviour melts away.  They are also 10x more likely to come to me if I am facing away from them and they are catching me up.

They also hate walking past me in a doorway - because by standing in or near a doorway, my body language is that I OWN the doorway, and they don't want to compete for ownership.  So standing in the doorway and calling them in from the garden is sending VERY mixed messages, and is difficult for them to cope with.  Instead, I open the door, step outside, to one side, and then go 'Come on!' and walk in through the doorway - and they trot in after me, perfectly happily.

If Cato feels in the slightest bit threatened (by strangers, raised voices or similar) he does the Shut Down Blank Face, and just sits and stares.  It isn't him being insolent, or difficult, or disobeying.  It is simply him keeping his distance from unstable, possibly dangerous situations.  Raising my voice to him in that situation and using an Angry voice would add to his stress.  In that situation I take care to step between him and the threat, and turn my back to Cato, and face towards the threat.  This tells him that it is OK, I am taking care of it.  I never raise my voice to him, because that way I would be taking the role of the threat, and I don't want to create that dynamic between us.

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Sophie's Haven

At my house I have TIME OUT......9 times out of 10 it is Bailey who has to do the 5 minute sit in the chair rule......one thing with these paws once a routine is set you need to stick with it........once you lax you pretty much have to start all over again from square one........ She needs to know your the boss and you can do it with a calm but stern voice......one thing that I did with the come to me command as I had a Border Collie that refused to come when called.......I leashed her.......we walked the length of our driveway......dropped the leash walked a few feet ahead of her and called her name....when she did not come I went back and got leash and we walk back the length of the driveway and I repeated this over and over again..........it took a Sunday afternoon but when her name is called she comes.......time and patience.....with our Shih Tzu's we play Ping Pong in the yard and that helped get them focused knowing a treat was waiting when they came to you........
 

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Pawz4me

I don't believe in dominance, or at least not in the way most people do. The whole concept of canine dominance was based on wolf studies which have since been emphatically discredited. Not only that, but it's now widely accepted that modern wolves weren't dogs' direct ancestors. So there are many problems with trying to attribute "dominance" behavior to dogs. The behavior you describe is what I would call possession aggression. She's telling you that she owns the coffee table, the floor and anything else under it. As Marlene said, the simple way to take care of that immediate problem is to get rid of the table for awhile. And then I'd look up the Nothing in Life is Free training program and start implementing it. Many aggression issues actually stem from a lack of confidence (which is totally opposite of the over confidence many people believe a supposedly,"dominant" dog has). NILIF is a great way to build a dog's confidence. I'd also work on using positive reinforcement training methods to teach as many commands and tricks as possible. The more a dog knows the more confident she becomes. Confident dogs rarely feel the need to act in a manner that most people would (wrongly, IMO) call "dominant."

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Mia-Bee-Uh

Thanks for all the input everyone!

So far I've "gotten rid" of the coffee table! She always seems to listen when she's not hidden under it!

Also I've started using the NILIF method again for everything lately. Like I said I used to do that for everything always but ill be more mindful and really do it because I do think she likes structure.

My biggest issue is petting her absent mindedly..she's just so cute it's hard not to! 

Wish me luck we'll see how it goes!!

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Missysmom
19 hours ago, Crinkly said:

They also hate walking past me in a doorway - because by standing in or near a doorway, my body language is that I OWN the doorway, and they don't want to compete for ownership.  So standing in the doorway and calling them in from the garden is sending VERY mixed messages, and is difficult for them to cope with.  Instead, I open the door, step outside, to one side, and then go 'Come on!' and walk in through the doorway - and they trot in after me, perfectly happily.

Thanks a million Jo, I didn't know the 'ownership' thing and I think you just solved my hubby's biggest frustration! I go out the door just like you and have no problems with Missy following. Hubby however, ever since he fell last year, wants everyone, including Missy, to go before him. He gets soooo frustrated when he's standing in the doorway and she won't go ahead. I've told him to go out first but somehow when I read yours to him he now understands! Ah Men... :hysterical: I'm just really happy he understands now cuz of course he then gets annoyed at Missy and it shows in his voice and she gets very confused and just runs to me.. Missy and I thank you! :D

Ashly I wish you the best with Mia, I too know how frustrating it is when they ignore you when called. Missy does that too. I've been working with her when we play fetch, she often runs the other way or stops at the end of the hall to chew her toy. I call her to me, give her lots of praise and pets, then play lots of fetch again! She likes that and it seems to be a good reinforcer for her.

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minabey

Lots of good advice here. Thank you all. I'll try to be better at not showing my frustration in my voice.

Should random petting then be discouraged? What does that mean to dogs? Because I pick Monkey up lots of times to cuddle him or lie next to him on the floor. Is that sending him signals that relate to him not listening to me sometimes? I say sometimes because he does come when I call him to wash his face or brush his teeth or even give him his meds. But calling him to his plate, he would suddenly go outside or leave and that's where he becomes 'deaf'. 

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Pawz4me
7 hours ago, minabey said:

Lots of good advice here. Thank you all. I'll try to be better at not showing my frustration in my voice.

Should random petting then be discouraged? What does that mean to dogs? Because I pick Monkey up lots of times to cuddle him or lie next to him on the floor. Is that sending him signals that relate to him not listening to me sometimes? I say sometimes because he does come when I call him to wash his face or brush his teeth or even give him his meds. But calling him to his plate, he would suddenly go outside or leave and that's where he becomes 'deaf'. 

I think it depends on the dog and on what you want from the dog.

Different dogs value different things. Our former dog (a Brittany) valued petting and attention. It was a hugely big thing for him, and he would "demand" it by being a pest--nudging (sometimes hard) with his nose, pawing, etc. So to control his pushiness for petting/attention I had to stop myself from random petting.  Which is a very hard thing for me to do and goes against all my instincts!

Yogi is a totally different dog personality wise. For him I don't think withholding petting or attention would serve any productive purpose.

Since Monkey is coming to you for things most dogs don't find pleasurable at all (face washing and tooth brushing and medication) but isn't for eating (something most dogs do find very pleasurable) -- I'd think on that a bit and see if I could come up with any reason for it. If you can figure out the "why" of that it will probably help you decide how to handle it. But in general I don't think withholding petting is going to help with a specific "blowing off" like that.

I also tend to look at the big picture. Aggression of any kind is a big deal to me and something I want to work 100 percent to nip in the bud. Refusing to come for one thing (and for eating of all things!) is probably something I'd just shrug off.

I think with NILIF or obedience training of any kind you really have to look at the big picture and think about what your individual goals are. Some people want robotic like obedience from their dogs in all things, almost to the point that the dog shuts down mentally and stops thinking for himself. And I guess there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not what I want at all. I want my dogs to retain some of their own independence and personality and the ability to think for themselves. But at the same time I want them to understand that sometimes they HAVE to listen to me and obey quickly. It's a very fine line to try to walk.

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Crinkly

... and if someone wants robotic obedience from their dog, they shouldn't get a Shih Tzu, cos it ain't ever gonna happen...

But the thinking for themselves might (definitely with Cato), or not (no chance with Tara).

:roflmao:

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PipsMom
1 hour ago, Crinkly said:

... and if someone wants robotic obedience from their dog, they shouldn't get a Shih Tzu, cos it ain't ever gonna happen...

But the thinking for themselves might (definitely with Cato), or not (no chance with Tara).

:roflmao:

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

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Crinkly

@minabey - just realised I didn't answer you on the Random Petting query.

I went away last weekend and left Mr C in charge.  When I got back he said 'I had NO IDEA how much Random Dog Interference you fielded!'

- Huh?  That made no sense to me at all.  So I asked him what he meant.  And the best he could manage by way of explanation, was that they need more than he realised.

- More what? (it was like getting blood out of a stone)

- More attention, more companionship, more affection, more... more.

Turns out that he would happily had spent all of his time walking them, feeding them, sitting in the same room with them.  But they needed interaction, snuggles on the sofa, conversation in the kitchen, python wrestling, refereeing, company on garden patrols, group TV watching, Pig's Ear Arbitration... and he hadn't realised how much they needed of it, and how much of a vacuum was left when I went away.

:roflmao:

What amused me most is that I do all these things without effort, or any sense of it being a burden/responsibility/time sink.  I do it cos I want to, and I love them, and they love me - which makes it a good dog-human relationship.  I would imagine that if someone didn't enjoy that, then Shih Tzus would be a bad choice, and another breed might suit them better.

I bet every single one of us on this forum do these things without even being aware of it.  Just comes naturally, to both dogs and humans.

Suppose it all boils down to the fact that they have been selectively bred as companion dogs.  So they offer - and need - companionship.  They aren't hunting dogs, or search and rescue, or herding, or... 

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minabey

Good to hear about the affection because I think going on a diet is a lot easier than not cuddling. It doesn't even cross my mind to pet him consciously. Like I would be going to use the toilet and have to step over him on the bathroom floor and I'll find myself cradling him and checking his eyes for gunk or lying down beside him. :) I think that withholding affection wouldn't do anything since he doesn't seek it out himself. He just accepts or tolerates it so the affection side is mostly for my benefit to be honest. He so soft and fluffy, I can't help it. :)

About the eating part, I told my husband that we should stop pestering him to eat during our meal time and just wait for him to be hungry enough to actually be interested in eating (which means 3pm). He already does the feeding because he's more patient about it than I am.

It would actually consider it a feat that someone would be able to achieve robotic obedience with the shih tzu. They are a willful bunch in cute packages. Definitely independent thinkers. The yawning signal actually works on Monkey and he shuts up but when he really really needs to bark it out, he will run away from my yawning face and bark his head off. 

Thanks for the thoughtful responses! 

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Missysmom

Ah yes Jo, Mr C and my hubby are a match! He too doesn't understand at all why I'm constantly jumping up to play with or do something for/with Missy! He'd much rather her be aloof and off doing something on her own! ;) 

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