meganpatricia 0 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Something happened today that has never happened before and it has got me really upset. Toby is 18 months now, and has always had the sweetest most social temperament. He hever met a person he didnt love and want to roll on his back for belly rubs from. I take him to work with me, and he meets a lot of people, some of them new, some repeat faces, every day. This morning, a girl from a few desks down who loves Toby and often comes to pet him was in my work area and something happened and TOby jumped up and bit her hand. Not hard enough to break the skin, but he has *never* done anything like this- he will sometimes play bite if i have him very very riled up while playing with toys but he has never aggressively bit anyone. I think toby's lead was a little tangled up in someone's feet when the bite happened- he may have been a little panicked or feeling trapped. Afterwards the girl was so sweet and said not to worry about it- she has a crazy dog at home who is always acting out around people. That got me wondering if it was her energy that helped bring on the bite- seeing as she is used to feeling defensive around dogs? Still, no one in their right mind would feel defensive around my little fluff. I just feel so disturbed right now, good dogs arent supposed to do this? Any thoughts would be so welcome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Seastar 44 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 You still have a good dog. You have to figure out what set him off. He could have had a tummy ache, or been sleeping, or like you said, tangled in the leash. Try to make sure that people approach him NOT by surprise, have them be sure to say his name, smile and approach him with outstretched hand, and slowly, or better yet, squat and call him to them, which gives him a choice of whether to say hi or not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loewenthal.anna 4 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 99% of the time a bite is the HUMAN'S fault. Not reading signs, misreading signals, ignoring warnings, overstepping boundaries. . . humans are NOTORIOUS for saying that a bite "came out of nowhere" even when the poor dog is waving a canine equivalent to a neon red stop sign right in their face BEGGING them to back off. What set Toby off, you may never know for sure. She may never know for sure, either. But based on what you've said about the injury itself I'm confident it was something she did, even though I am sure it was not intentional. First of all, a bite without breaking skin is a "warning" since ANY dog acting with full-force could easily break skin, regardless of size. Secondly, I find it hard to imagine Toby being able to reach an adult's hand were it not already lowered in his direction, being a small dog and all. Not that I am suggesting you be accusatory the next time you see this girl, as I started off saying most people genuinely do not know to read dogs. But I don't want you to think of Toby as "bad dog" because if it either, because he wasn't being bad, he was just being a dog. And really, we ALL do things that could potentially upset a dog now and again, even those of us who work with them day in and day out. It's part of the human condition to be ignorant of feelings outside out own and to act impulsively, heaven help all the dogs out there who are SOO patient with all of us idiots! As far as what now, perhaps the next step is to simply pay closer attention to Toby and begin to recognize signs of stress or frustration. Once you know what those emotions look like for him, you'll be able to key in on them, and speak up on his behalf to help prevent another incident from happening. Or at least help others be aware of what to look for. I also would HIGHLY recommend reading anything written by Dr. Patricia McConnell on the topic of canine behavior, she has a phenomenal way with words and is incredibly adept at explaining the nuance of the canine psyche (ie: what freaks them out, and why) in ways everyone can easily understand. She specializes in "dangerous" and "aggressive" dogs too so she confronts the emotions that drive a bite head-on is several of her titles. amazon.com results for Dr. McConnell Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fluffalicious 34 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Is Toby neutered ? Intact males mature around 18 months , and this can affect behaviour . Kirsty Quote Link to post Share on other sites
meganpatricia 0 Posted February 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Yes, he was fixed at 7 months. Thanks for the advice, Anna and Seastar... he has now snapped at (but not bitten) 2 other people today so I am really feeling worried. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mr.coffee 364 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 I'd read that as a cue that something is definitely wrong. Perhaps he's feeling poorly, or overwhelmed, or feels threatened for one reason or another. Is it possible that he's injured, hurting or irritated? -m Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Carolina Girl 2 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 I think that since this is not typical behavior for him, I would take him in to see your vet. Since he has now done this 3 times, something may be going on with him physically..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
meganpatricia 0 Posted February 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 He seems a little tired today, but not injured. I'm taking him to the vet in the AM just to be certain nothing is wrong. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loewenthal.anna 4 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Do you think you could share more about the scenarios in which he snapped? Where was he? what was he doing? What were the people doing? Was he on a leash? Was he in a "den" area? Was the room noisy or quiet? . . . all of these things can play a role in how a dog reacts. To use my own dominant dog (who has a bite-history which some of you may recall) as an example: Poe WILL NOT tolerate anyone/anything entering (or sticking a finger into) her crate or "den" other than her superiors (Adam and I), she will not tolerate other dogs near "her food" (even if it's not really hers), she does not like strangers while she's on a leash (where she's comfortable meeting new people when introduced in our home), She doesn't like people who stare at her (this one's virtually unanimous among alpha dogs, direct eye contact is VERY aggressive in dog-language), and she doesn't like people who yell/make a lot of noise in a lower octave ie: men fighting. . . kids playing noise is fine with her. When she's upset she get's very stiff, her weight is shifted forward onto her front feet and her neck will crane out toward the offending person/object. She ticks her tail methodically and hard-stares at the "problem" . . . ALL of these things are clear-cut signals that she's unhappy and they happen 30-45 seconds before she acts on it. That sounds like a short amount of time but really, it's plenty of notice for me to get between her and said-offense and distract her, which is the ultimate goal of handling a dominant dog. We had a situation at a pet store where Poe was laying on the floor being admired by the workers while I chatted when an idiot of a woman walked right up to her, stared at her, then proceeded to step OVER her (!!!!) all in the span of 3-4 seconds. I was halfway to me knees by the time Poe reached out and grabbed the woman's pant leg but there was really no stopping that train completely, the assault had just come too quickly. I was able to tackle her and hold her down while everyone else (namely the idiot) backed up enough for me to get her back out to the car safely. The woman suffered a small bruise and a hole in her jeans. I bit my tongue and apologized profusely while handing over a check for the amount of her pants, because it is better to appeal to the idiot's mindset in those situations. Everyone else in the store (and every trainer/behaviorist I've told the story to since) saw the incident for what it was, a GROSS overstepping (literally) of Poe's boundaries, but that woman in her ignorance, was completely convinced it was all Poe's fault and she was a "bad dog". And it was far easier to agree with her than it would have been to educate her. The truth is, had I not known Poe's trigger, and anticipated a reaction out of her she could have had that woman on the floor before I was able to react and then it seems unlikely that a check and a white lie about my "bad dog" would have been a sufficient apology. That's why I say it's important to learn your dogs particular triggers and cues, because it becomes the OWNER who takes blame for anything that their dog does in public. And the benefit of the doubt goes to all those idiots out there who stick there hands and faces right into the face of a terrified/pissed dog. I hope that's helpful, at the very least in the at-least-there's-someone-else-out-there-who's-been-there kind of way. I would really be interested to hear what else you can share about these incidents and the situation around them, and also what your vet has to say on the medical front. We wish you all the luck in the world and lots of snuggles to Mr. Toby, it sounds like he's had a rough couple days! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Seastar 44 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 I agree. Get him to the vet. Being at work could be just too stressful, or too long a stressful time, for him to handle. He wants to back off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MisterMom 11 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) Probably tired of people coming around and disturbing his naps ! Have the vet check his teeth also. Edited February 15, 2011 by MisterMom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mr.coffee 364 Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Perhaps stating the obvious here, but please keep us updated! -m Quote Link to post Share on other sites
meganpatricia 0 Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 thank you everyone for the words of advice and concern! anna, to answer your question i work in a sort of open workspace, like a loft. we each have our own desk/computer stations arranged around a central large work table. At the time that the bite happened toby was tied to my desk with a long lead, as is usual for him. He normally sits out in the aisle at the end of his lead happily saying hello to everyone who goes by. Toby is ultra-social and loves attention, so to me this has always seemed like a great situation for him. Anyhow, there were a cluster of people talking in a corner and he came up behind them. One girl backed up, got tangled in his lead and I think he got scared, jumped up and bit the closest hand. He snapped at 2 other people during the day who were just saying hi to him in the normal way that they do (one girl was rubbing his belly and then went to pet his head and he snapped). The vet says he checks out a-ok physically. When we came into work today he saw one of the women he had snapped at in the hallway and ran up to her to give her some love as if nothing had ever happened. I am electing to keep him in a little playpen under my desk now- he can see whats going on without being overstimulated by people in his space. I adore having him with me every day- he gets to see people and play with the other dogs. It would break my heart if I had to leave him home, not to mention my wallet, paying for a walker to come for him. The vet also gave me the number for the vet hospital behavioral unit- they do half day programs for dogs and owners to learn about dog behavior and identify what the dogs triggers are and how to work with them. i am not sure if we really need this- Toby is so outgoing and friendly that I would have a hard time describing what his 'triggers' are, as up until yesterday I didnt know he would ever act out in such a way. Oh and the vet did look at his teeth and reminded me that I need to be brushing more often- nothing dire though. :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loewenthal.anna 4 Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Well it sounds like you are doing everything you can to stay proactive here, and it may have just been an isolated incident stemming from him being scared that first time. Fear bites are VERY common in smaller dogs and you can't even really blame them I mean, they walk around in world full of GIANTS and one of those huge creatures moving too quickly, or getting too close is understandably scary! I like the idea of controlling "his space" with a playpen, that has been a really effective tool with Poe when she's overwhelmed or feeling protective. We encourage her to go into her crate with the certainty that nobody except Adam or I will ever approach her when she's in there. I think it gives dogs a nice set of boundaries to create a space that is just there's, so they don't feel obligated to interact when they aren't feeling up to it. Like "home base" in a game of tag. Also glad to hear that this isn't a symptom of something more serious medically, that makes things a lot easier in that you can now just focus on making him feel comfortable and confident in the workplace without also having to contend with a pain impulse. As Mike said, do keep us updated! We're happy to help however possible :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Carolina Girl 2 Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I have one that is a biter. I remind every person who steps foot into my house not to look at him, pet him, or talk to him. As long as they follow my directions, he is fine. Sometimes, someone will think that he looks harmless and will pet him. He will let them pet him for about 10 seconds and then he snaps! Good luck! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mom2Gizmo 24 Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I'm so sorry you are going through this. I know how upset you must be. You're comment "good dogs aren't supposed to do this" is something that got me. I feel strongly, about both humans and dogs, that there are very very few "good" people or dogs, and very few "bad" people or dogs. We are all a little of both. You are a human, with both good and bad in you. You're dog is a dog, with both good and bad traits. Nothing more, nothing less. People sometimes act irritably, crabby, and sometimes even aggressively (by choice no less). Why is it surprising to anyone that a dog may feel that way at times, especially when their "aggressiveness" is more instinct than anything? He is not a bad dog because he snapped at someone. He is simply a living being with emotions and feelings. Any living being with emotions and feelings can have a bad day. Now, I do have to reiterate that with the fact that yes, he was trying to tell you something. And yes, you should pay attention. Nothing I said above means I believe the incident should be ignored. I just think sometimes we expect way more out of dogs than we do out of humans!! Good luck with him. I hope he soon feels more secure and confident! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mr.coffee 364 Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 He is not a bad dog because he snapped at someone. He is simply a living being with emotions and feelings. Any living being with emotions and feelings can have a bad day. Nail on the head! Given a dog's available means of addressing issues with us, they're to be commended for not biting all of us more often... -m Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chloechanel'smommy 2 Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I also had a biting incident this week with Chloe. My son and his girlfriend babysat my younger sons while my husband and I went out to dinner for Valentines Day. When we got home Amber (son's gf) said that when she went into the boys' room to put them to bed, Chloe bit her! This is totally out of character for her. I'm not justifying what Chloe did but I think she may have thought she was protecting her "brothers". Although, she knows and loves Amber, which by the way is a dog person, she wasn't her moma that was in the boys room putting them to bed. I asked Amber what her reaction was she said she gave her a stern no, made her get out of the boys' room and put her "to bed" in the kitchen with the babygate up. That is exactly what I would have done. Maybe there is too much going on in your office and this stresses him out. Good luck to you and Toby. I know his behavior is upsetting to you. I still really feel bad that Chloe bit Amber. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loewenthal.anna 4 Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Nail on the head! Given a dog's available means of addressing issues with us, they're to be commended for not biting all of us more often... -m I say ALL THE TIME that the true miracle of domestication is that our pets don't eat us in our sleep. If you think of it from a wild/instinctual point of view, we make ourselves SO vulnerable in front of our pets it's a wonder they respect us at all, really. Sometimes it helps to put things in perspective for me to remember that, and remember that when my dogs act up "out of character" it's almost always something I'VE done to illicit the negative action. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
meganpatricia 0 Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 That is a very good point about good and bad people and dogs- I think Toby is so good most of the time that I worry that something will go wrong just because no one can be that good all the time! However, he is my sweet boy and he had a bad day. Ultimately it is my responsibility to be his guardian in the weird human world, and I let him down yesterday, even though I didnt mean to. I'm sorry to hear Chloe had an incident too, I think its upsetting to them as well to get pushed to a point where they act out like that. Maybe It's just my human projection but I felt like Toby was feeling very out of sorts after the bite, just like a person feels guilty for blowing up when they're mad. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tzuhouse 4 Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Megan, is there a chance when the girl moved backward and got tangled in the lead, that perhaps she stepped on Toby's toe? If so, he may have remembered that throughout the day and was protecting himself AND his toes from a repeat.....if he is back to his normal self over the next few days, I would not worry much about it, ONLY because he could have reacted from an injury, even if minor.....but of course if it continues, then the behavorist would be the way to go in my book. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
meganpatricia 0 Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I had Toby out on his lead today while I was sitting at my desk and he was approached by one of the people who he had snapped at the other day. She asked me if she could say hi to him, got down on his level and greeted him with an outstretched hand to let him sniff her, and he snapped at her again. I dont know if it is just the association with her now (although he greeted her in a very friendly way while we were away from my desk), but I *did* notice that he started circling his stuffed toy protectively after he jumped at her. It is his all time favorite toy and I have noticed that it can make him act a little crazy even sometimes. Im still not clear on what was the scary trauma of two days ago (did he get stepped on?) and what is just a new wariness I am noticing in him (he seems less willing to get tumbled around by other dogs on the playground as well). I know their personalities can shift and change as they grow into adulthood. For now it seems workable to keep him under my desk when I can't supervise him closely and let him hang out when I am able to monitor his interactions. I sure would love to have a behavioralist sit next to us at work for a day, but dont even want to know what that would cost! I am also not sure how effective going to one would be, I think the crux of our problem seems to be specific to my workplace environment, and I am doubtful about the benefit of having him evaluated outside of that environment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jackwabbit 0 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) I came across this article from the New York Post this morning ..... there are some interesting statistics here, but no real answers. Good luck with Toby, I'm at a loss to provide any advice or suggestions. Please continue to keep us updated. This just made me think of something that is a reverse situation, of sorts..... I have some close friends that have a 3 yr old male chihuaha that is a NOTORIOUS biter. He hates pretty much EVERYONE, excluding his "parents". They adopted him as an adult, and he seems pretty set in his ways.... the funny thing is, he WON'T bite me. Whenever I visit, he seeks me out for attention. I have never approached him, but he always comes to say hi and demand some interaction. Usually he will hop up in my lap and will want to play like a little puppy. Why me, of all people??? His owners are always in disbelief at the way he dotes on me, yet rejects most other people regardless of age or sex. Why am I any different??? I'm an adult male, with a deep voice and a not-so-cuddly personality. You would think such a little dog would find me intimidating, but he's been my buddy since day one..... one of life's mysteries, I guess. I wish I understood better how their little brains work. Edited February 19, 2011 by Jackwabbit Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mom2Gizmo 24 Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) Jackwabbit, it's not a mystery to me. You stated you have never approached him and you have a "not so cuddly personality". That is exactly why the dog does not find you intimidating. Chihuahua's are often aggressive because they have not been socialized well. In the end they are uncomfortable with any people other than their owners. Since you do not approach the dog in any way, you do not feel threatening to the dog. Someone who tries to approach with an oh look how cute attitude is actually handling a dog like that in the wrong way. Ignoring the dog is what works. Eventually the dog will come to the person when he/she feels comfortable enough to. Approaching a dog is in itself threatening. and that is why you are different!! Edited February 20, 2011 by mom2Gizmo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
meganpatricia 0 Posted February 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Yes, this works with members of the opposite sex as well. :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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