Is My Baby a Bully?

[Claudiabehr 3]

Well, Panda went to doggie daycare again last Friday as she will today but her report card (yes, they do report cards) was about a C-. Apparently, she's "inexhaustible" and loves to play with everyone. This is a good thing. BUT WHETHER OR NOT THEY WANT TO PLAY WITH HER. Not such a good thing. So she finds this little doggie who is half her size and invites her to play and when the doggie didn't want to, Panda simply pounced on her and began to nibble at her underbelly, which the dog couldn't stop because of her size. Panda had to have a timeout each time she did this. Is this normal ST behavior? puppy behavior? It's been 30 years since I've had a dog and I no longer know what's normal.

I know it's normal for puppies who are little to jump on other dogs' faces (I think) even though adult dogs don't allow this. Anyway, wondering what others' experiences have been with doggie interactions.

[loewenthal.anna 4]

The "report card" makes me think that perhaps this day care is anthropomorphizing their clients a bit. . . it may be day-care, but these AREN'T 4 year old humans, after all! They can't really expect a client to see a "C -" and go home to "talk it out" with the dog the way you might a small child who's misbehaving at school.

I would be far more worried if they were telling you that Panda was defensively barking in a corner (nervous dogs are dangerous dogs), or snapping at other dogs when they refuse her invitation. It sounds like she loved that little puppy and wanted to play. . . part of being a puppy is learning how to know when they've overstepped boundaries (Panda), and how to assert themselves when they feel they've had enough (the little one). If this little dog isn't up to that challenge (and size really doesn't matter, Lolly used to sass the crap out of Poe when she got out of hand and there was a 140lb weight difference between them) then that says a lot more about how THAT dog has been socialized, not yours. If Panda were initiating fights, that would be one thing. But a puppy jumping on and smelling another dog doesn't sound aggressive to me, just enthusiastic -- which describes nearly EVERY puppy I've ever met, that's for sure!

If they hound you about it maybe suggest that that little dog is the one who needs a different environment. Without being corrected by the dog she's offended, it'll be slow going to get her to understand why she gets a "time out" every time she tried to play with it.

[tzuhouse 4]

You know what, I think Panda is perfect....sounds like she is doing just what puppies do....I know mine sure does....in fact she doesn't "invite" the others to play....he "DEMANDS" it and if they don't he gets right in their faces and barks his little head off and then nips at their legs....it is pretty funny actually, to see the bigger ones run from him...he is a little dickens. I like Anna, would be more worried if Panda were being shy or protective and cowering in a corner. I hope the report card is just a "fun" thing seeing as how we treat our furbabies like KIDS most of the time anyway...LOL

You can bring Panda here for the day and I GUARANTEE Rudy will play.....(and bite and run and roll and tease, and, and, and, and.....)

[Carolina Girl 2]

I'm no expert, but this sounds like normal puppy behaviour. Ozzy does this same thing with Daisy. If she won't play (which she won't because she is a very distinguished, old lady) , he will "force" himself on her. He gets in her face, he jumps on her, he play growls and barks. When she's had enough she lets him know. He then stops and moves on to something else.

[FairyTail Josette 14]

Sounds like very typical puppy behavior to me. Panda is just being a puppy. The Shih Tzu is described to be full of "happy naughtiness" by Tzu breeders/exhibitors. That term describes Josey perfectly. As a puppy, Josey was full of it and still is! This daycare should understand that Panda is exhibiting normal puppy behavior and should not be put in time out, imo. Maybe, the daycare needs to have a sub-groups out of the puppies. Putting more out-going puppies in one group and smaller, less active puppies in another group. I've seen this done at our local puppy day care, they made 2 separate groups within the same room.

[Claudiabehr 3]

Thanks for your replies and I just want to say that the daycare doesn't give grades. That was MY grade based on how she was with the tiny dog. I do feel she's just being a puppy but in the same way biting os discouraged by everyone even though it's normal, I hope Panda will not continue to use her superior size (6 pounds) against someone less able to fight back. Panda herself will not fight back with a larger aggressively playing dog.

[mr.coffee 364]

I would agree with what's been said here so far. Harley is a playful one as well, fortunately his daycare experiences have been positive, and supervised be people who seem to understand dog & puppy behavior.

I can see the sense in a report card, we all want to know how our baby's day went, but I think the best approach may be to discuss the situation with them, point out the differences between play and aggressive or defensive behaviors and just be sure things are monitored.

-m

[loewenthal.anna 4]

I dunno Claudia, I still think that lil sucker needs to buck up! I mean, if dogs don't learn when they're young how to defend themselves (or worse, they EXPECT their owners/handlers to run to the rescue) then there will invariably come a time when they encounter a dog who really can/will hurt them and they won't know what to do.

It's not always pretty watching puppies sort out a hierarchy. I know I've shared here before about the trials and tribulations of bringing Lolly to the "big dog" dog park when she was no more than two pounds. Sitting and watching her get "puppy bounced" as I like the think of it by puppies who were no older, but 20-50lbs heavier than her was SO hard, but she learned when to sass back and when to hide which has been an invaluable lesson. Those months at the park twice a day are ABSOLUTELY why she and Poe were able to live together, Lolly was confident enough in herself to be assertive, she taught Poe how to be gentle by example.

If you're worried about Panda's behavior still, I might take her to get more experience with other dogs herself. I've found that once dogs learn the sign for "I'm done. back off!" they can read it on ANY dog, regardless of how big or small. I wouldn't expect miracles, I doubt she'll spend an afternoon at the park and come back will full respect for other dogs' boundaries but every little bit helps. You can't control how others socialize their dogs, or even what your own dog does when you're not around, but you CAN give Panda every opportunity to learn in a constructive environment and that will benefit everyone.

I agree with Suzi too that the whole "time out" thing probably won't work. Even under the best circumstances our dogs have trouble understanding "what they did" . . . I'd hate to see Panda equate playing with being confined. That must be so confusing for her!!

[mr.coffee 364]

I have to laugh when I think of Lolly & Poe. Shannon once had a Rott, Max, who was still around when she got Precious (her Toy Yorkie). Max was a rough dog; well, it was no time at all before Precious had him straightened out. Unfortunately I never had the opportunity to meet Max, he was bitten by a snake - probably trying to play with it.

When we go to the dog park here on occasion, I've found that Harley actually prefers to rumble with the big dogs. It makes me a little nervous, and I stay close, but he does fine. He runs and plays and barks and chases and bows, and has yet to get in over his head. It seems that the bigger dogs will typically play a lot rougher with each other, but not so much when the small dogs get involved.

-m

[kcsheperd 13]

Aww..Who wouldn't want to play with Sweet Panda! They should get a C! Payslee is a bully..She pulls Sawyer off the couch by his face..takes his toys..takes his bones..drags him around by the face, etc.. And he outweighs her by 6 pounds or more! It sounds to me like your sweet girl is just trying to find someone to play with and the other dogs are being kinda boring.. Dogs always "work it out" when it comes to behavior issues..especially when they are puppies, so I wouldn't worry too much. When Sawyer has had enough of Payslee he lets her know, and she quits.. Now Speaking of Sawyer..He has a horrible habit of hugging other dogs in the face..I have NO IDEA why he does it..I know its not 'normal' dog behavior, but he just LOVES to hug them in their face! He puts his paws all the way around their neck as if to give them a bear hug! Some dogs don't mind it..but others are like, "Dude..what are you doing!" So I have to watch him..last week he hugged a giant Rottweiler in the face and the Rottie was none too pleased.. Its just like sometimes they do what they do, and I don't really know how to fix it!! But I think Panda is just wanting to play, and not breaking any 'puppy/dog/ rules.. I wouldn't worry about it too much..PS..Saw says he will play with Miss Panda anytime she travels to Oklahoma!! :ranting:

[Seastar 44]

I agree. Your puppy is just fine. And time-out for a little pup??

[Claudiabehr 3]

KC, that's the funniest thing I've heard.......pulling him off the sofa BY THE FACE............Panda does this thing with dogs she likes and she jumps on their faces, but I've seen lots of puppies do this. Her best doggie friends tolerate it, but on the trail, when we meet an older dog who doesn't, she gets her comeuppance.

Thank you all for normalizing her behavior...that's what I really wanted to know and when she got her "report card" from yesterday, she had no issues with anyone. I suspect it was related more to the human in the room and a particular dog than anything else. As a prospective therapy dog, Panda will often need to act contrary to instinct and I think this is okay. And as far as taking her to the dog park, there've been a couple of dog deaths and many injuries here at the dog park........................noone brings their small dogs (I'm talking Panda's size, i.e. 7 pounds) because of it. I have a couple of friends with littles where we take our dogs to run and where it's safe.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Claudiabehr

[mr.coffee 364]

I just love seeing Panda pictures! She's a real cutey pie!

Yeah, there's been some talk of the dangers of dog parks and such; also some have learned that these incidents can and do happen anywhere, unfortunately. Not so long ago I had to snatch Harley up and chase a larger dog out of my own fenced back yard. I guess what that all boils down to is you need to keep your eyes open all the time, and be near your dog. At a park, I'm never far from Harley and I'm always closely watching the behavior of the other dogs. If I don't feel secure, we leave.

KC, I know you've got lots of video of your furkids, you got any clips of Pays harassing Sawyer?

-m

[loewenthal.anna 4]

Is there someone you can contact about your dog park? A committee of some sort perhaps? It is UNACCEPTABLE to me that anyone should fear for their dog's life when bringing them to a park specifically geared towards dogs. If there are people with dominant-aggressive dogs who are maiming and killing little ones someone needs to be calling the police EVERY time something happens. Before it happens, really, because you can usually tell a trouble-maker before they even get through the gate.

We had a terrible incident here with Poe where this woman brought two dogs in and before they'd even gotten through the first gate they were fighting the fence. Poe was sleeping by my feet (it was like 85 degrees out and you can't get much out of her in warm weather) and I looked at the women I was sitting with and said "Oh man, this is going to be bad." They asked why and I said (while grabbing Poe's collar) that if I were a dominant-aggressive dog I would ABSOLUTELY go after the largest dog in the park -- ie: Poe.

Sure enough, she let the dogs loose (a Golden and a Shepherd. . . the Golden was the alpha) and they ran right over and pounced on Poe. I screamed at her that if she couldn't control her dogs I was going to call the Military police (we were on base) and she apologized and brought them to the other end of the 2+ acre park. I was sitting, and had a good hold on Poe so I decided just to distract her and bring her over to the mud puddle around the water since she LOVES mud. Not two seconds after she'd laid down in the sloppy water I got knocked over by the golden who AGAIN jumped on Poe! Everyone started screaming at this woman to come get her dog as Poe easily rolled him over and grabbed him by the neck (thank god she was big enough to do this, there is no doubt in my mind that a smaller dog would have been in 10 pieces after that dog was done). All I remember yelling was "WHAT THE ***** DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN?! YOU BETTER COME SAVE YOUR DOG!" She sauntered, literally like she hadn't a care in the world, and eventually pulled her dog away. By then I had gotten the leash on Poe and sat down for counter-weight. While all this was happening 3 different women in the park had called the MP's and they got there before the woman was able to run away. Her dog's licenses on post were revoked on the spot, I don't know if any other charges came her way but at minimum that made it illegal for her to keep the dogs on post.

When I spoke to the MP's they said that they'd received other calls where the description fit this woman's dogs, but they'd always been called after the fact, when the victim was at the vet so they couldn't do anything about it. They asked me why I didn't leave with my dog after the woman first got there and I told them that I didn't feel it was MY responsibility to leave. Then I pointed out that had we left, the next largest dog was a small Brittany spaniel and how much different the outcome would have been if we'd left it up to HIM to fend off the Golden. Poe was fine, the Golden was fine, neither of which might have been the case if it wasn't Poe who was targeted.

My guess is that if your dog park is having similar issues it's likely the same dog or couple dogs committing the offenses. I understand the fear after situations like that, we took a break from the park to work on leash so I could be sure that the incident hadn't affected Poe's ability to interact with other dogs, which it didn't. My point is though, that it is the communities responsibility to actively prevent dog parks from becoming death arenas by reporting owners who cannot control their dogs in that setting. Our parks in NYC were VERY good about this, even if the offender was a Yorkie, they were reported and asked to leave. It's to everyone's benefit to be diligent about these things for the exact reasons you mentioned. Left unchecked those behaviors can and will get out of hand.

I hope that things get better in your park, dog runs are an amazing gift to all of us and we should all be able to experience and enjoy them.