Luca's been aggressive...

[Missysmom 24,975]

Oh wow I was so hoping that he'd be better with the calming spray. I was wondering though, it sounds like several of the times you guys bent down towards him, did you happen to reach down towards or over his head? I know they can get defensive about that, Missy will still back away if I come down over her head then I catch myself and change position. Even with petting her I have to be careful not to come down over her head, or she'll back away real quick and give me the stink eye. Just a thought. 

I don't know about contacting the Humane Society, I don't know what they would do either. At least in my experiences a week and a half isn't bad, Missy was only with her foster mom for 2 nights. We were all pretty clueless what this little girl would be like, she would hardly come near anyone! Hubby and I just looked at each other and said do we know what we're doing here?! Thankfully all worked out and she's a sweetie and I know Luca is too - right now though it does seem that sweet little guy is hiding! Praying he comes back real soon. Hugs.

[Marlene 14,113]

I think you should contact the shelter he came from.........they might offer to pay the costs of a trainer and/or suggest just the right one.

We do things like that in rescue.  Just today a Boxer I have been involved with has finally been adopted.  I knew there was something wrong with her (I fostered her for a month).  She was adopted almost sight unseen by a wonderful family but shortly after arriving they were noticing the same things I was.  They took her to a vet who said it was neurological but he didn't have the expertise to diagnosis her.  Our rescue paid for her to see a neuro specialist - it turns out she has a frontal lobe issue.  He feels she has been dealing with it for a long time - not knowing if it was from birth or an injury but that she will not likely get worse.  They feel they can deal with her problems and have made the adoption permanent.

You need to be "in the right hands" for this.

You will also have to consider your liability with him :-(  You have children and probably have other children in your home.  Luca is tiny but he could still inflict a painful disfiguring bite on a small child or even an adult (on a foot, leg or hand).

I don't trust Shorty but we are in our 70's, retired, our grandchildren are young adults, we don't have much company and feel we can "protect him from himself" (and getting us in trouble).

It's ironic.....after having Boxer for 30 years and trying to convince people they are NOT Pit Bulls, they are friendly, affectionate and just plain silly - we now have this adorable fluff ball everyone wants to schmooze with and he can't be trusted.  Many people are nice about it - but some people have gotten very upset with him which breaks my heart.

[Crinkly 15,586]

Two of those incidents (harness and stroking) were touching him - presumably around the shoulders?

Might be worth checking to see if he has any sore areas.

And they may all be around play - which he initiated.  I am wondering if he is mis-reading your body language.

Cato was an only dog for 18 months, and I had NO IDEA how much play he needed until Tara arrived.  We walked him every day, and we DID play with him.  I used to throw toys and tug o war in short bursts, all day, if I was home.  Then come the evening, I would sit on the floor and we would wrestle, throw, 'fetch' (although he has never grasped the 'bringing back bit'), tug o war and do training and treat games for anywhere from 45 mins up to 2 hours.  Until he was too tired to carry on, and lay down, toy firmly gripped in his mouth, wanting to carry on but without the energy.  His main play ploy is to grab something (snatching it out of your hand, or from under your reaching hand, and then run off with it, shaking and killing) we are supposed to chase him. That is what he wants more than anything else.  To be chased, and for us to try and get HIS toy.  We are not, of course, ever supposed to get it from him.  He just wants the chase, the taunting, the shaking, and then more chasing.

And you know, all that play STILL wasn't enough!  Once Tara arrived, it was like all that repressed NEED to play came bursting out of him.  He went ballistic, and actually frightened her a bit with his speed and bounce and freneticism.

So, I guess I am saying that no matter how much energy you get Luca to expend, in walks and games, at his age, it may not be enough to totally release his pent up bounce.  Which may come out as lack of bite inhibition.

We are having a similar situation with our cat at the moment.  He is a King of the Neighbourhood Outdoor Cat, and we are having to keep him inside for weeks. He is bored, and annoyed, and his kill instincts are bottled up and under high pressure.  We have bought him a lazer pointer thing, so that he can hunt and kill the red dot of light, and I can stand at the top of the stairs and direct the dot all over the walls and floor on two floors.  He loves it, and we are loving the pressure release and the chance to sleep through the night.

But what has surprised me most, is that the dogs love the red dot too!  They chase and hunt and kill it.  They can charge around all over the ground floor. Skidding in the hard flooring, tripping over themselves and releasing their prey-drive.  If your house is open-plan, you may be able to EXHAUST Luca with a red dot, while you sit on your sofa with a cup of tea.  It would also keep his teeth well away from your hands and ankles!

This kind of thing http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kerbl-LED-Pointer-12-80/dp/B00I46D00E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1443688655&sr=8-1&keywords=laser+pointer+cat

and

Edited October 1, 2015 by Crinkly

[Pawz4me 6,802]

I'd call the Humane Society.  If nothing else to ask about a trainer -- you never know who they might be able to recommend who might give you a price break.

And I'm with Jo (again) -- I'm not totally convinced that what you're seeing isn't misguided play behavior.  I don't recommend the use of laser pointers with dogs, though.  There's some good evidence that many dogs can have a tendency to develop OCD type behaviors like fly snapping and shadow chasing after exposure to laser pointers.  As far as I know the issue has mainly been seen in herding breeds, but it's not something I take a chance on.

[Crinkly 15,586]

I'd call the Humane Society.  If nothing else to ask about a trainer -- you never know who they might be able to recommend who might give you a price break.

And I'm with Jo (again) -- I'm not totally convinced that what you're seeing isn't misguided play behavior.  I don't recommend the use of laser pointers with dogs, though.  There's some good evidence that many dogs can have a tendency to develop OCD type behaviors like fly snapping and shadow chasing after exposure to laser pointers.  As far as I know the issue has mainly been seen in herding breeds, but it's not something I take a chance on.

Thank you!  I had no idea. 

Will curb the laser pointer activities with them.  They will be disappointed, but would hate to start up OCD behaviours!

[Missysmom 24,975]

Wow such Great info on this tread!

I too have been wondering about the play behavior since we had to teach Missy (and other rescues) how to play- poor babes had no idea.

Soo last night we had just a minor incident but it did bring me to thinking on this tread. We were playing 'tug' with a string type toy, which she doesn't usually play with. And she seem to get overly excited and yep nipped my arm and broke the skin. Of course my skin is getting a bit thinner with age so it does break open easier but it still was a pretty hard nip!

I have heard that playing tug can cause some problems and I generally drop the toy when she gets overexcited and make her calm down but this seemed to reach that point very fast with this type string toy.

Was wondering what type toys Luca is playing with and if you've noticed any difference when he plays with different types?

[PipsMom 34,988]

I've learned the same.....very, very fragile thin line between playing tug and over stimulation that leads to aggression nips. Have to have a keen eye to end it before that switch is tripped in her brain....

She is learning though...If it's between the two playing, I get right up among them....motion the away sign with my hand saying no bite....She stops...looks..thinks....and moves away now.

Not a permanent fix but I think she's been broken and anything I do only super glued it back together temporarily...

[Infamousmare 491]

Oh my goodness!   I went to bed with a lot of questions and woke up to a ton of answers - you guys have been busy!   Thanks!

Major lightbulbs are going off in my head now.   I was looking for loud noises, startling moves, scary things...I was NOT thinking about play.   *smacks head*

First, when the foster mom brought him to meet us, she brought her 9-year-old niece with her (apparently the niece spends evenings and weekends at the foster's house).  The niece was kind of rough with him (okay, much more rough than I would be with a dog), constantly grabbing him, picking him up and also *here's the lightbulb moment* sticking her hands toward his face and snatching them back, allowing him to lunge and nip.   The foster mom also laughed and allowed him to play bite and nip her hands while she was rubbing his face.   I said no, even during the meet-n-greet, because growing up, we never allowed our dogs to do this and, having children in the house, I didn't want a play bite to turn into something worse.    She agreed and apologized - but I'm thinking that might be part of it.  Now, I do NOT think the foster was a bad foster mommy!  God bless her for taking in doggies like Luca and giving them second chances at life!   However, given Luca's unknown past AND the fact that he came in to the kill shelter with a laceration on his face, let's just assume that we shouldn't be messing with this baby's face OR allowing him to play bite.  

Second, we cannot play tug with Luca.  *another lightbulb flashing here!*    We have a couple of small rope tugs and a Flappy tug.   Luca will bring them to us but when we try to play tug with him, he growls, snarls and goes after our hands and arms, not the toy.   He'll let go of the toy and come after our arms!    *weary laugh*   I have also warned my children NOT to mess with him when he has certain toys.  He will bite, flip, run after and growl/snarl at his Flappy and his Froggie toys - which is fine if he's playing by himself.   It was his Froggie that he laid at my feet yesterday.  The problem is, when he lays a toy at our feet, he'll snap at us if we bend down to take it; however, if we ignore it or walk away, he will bite our feet.   My middle guy lives in fear of Luca dropping a toy at his feet for this reason.  

Lastly, Luca does mouth us when we come near his face.  This is very different from the snarling/snapping I've told you about...but it will lead do that snarling/snapping if we don't cut it out.   *I've got a K-Mart Blue Light Special lightbulb flashing right here*   He hates when I try to wipe his face and...he'll have a snarling session not long after I try that.  

My kids are not perfect, but they are generally calm and well-behaved.  They don't mess with him when he's in his crate.  They don't chase him around or tease him.  My husband and I don't really yell (never at each other and rarely at the kids).   We're not runners or shouters in our house and my daughter worked for a few years with horses (she had to stop because she has brittle bone syndrome) and is really good at using a slow hand and a gentle voice.  She is also good at using a firm-but-not-shouting-or-angry voice.     But when she went to put on his harness this morning, he lunged at her.   She immediately said "no bite" in a firm voice, then stood slowly and became a "tree".   He backed right off.  (This was a proud mama moment for me!!)   I talked with her about his face sensitivity and we agreed readily that first, we need to get this boy a different harness (I freaking HATE his current harness, the one he came with!).   He needs a larger one that he can step into and that won't rub him.    The less we mess with his face and around his mouth, the better - and the less he's irritated by his harness, the happier I think he'll be.  

I so appreciate all of your input - really, more than you will ever know.   It is so difficult to step back outside of where I am and see where problems lie and it is VERY helpful to have others point out potential problem areas.   I thought that since we're a fairly calm, quiet household (okay, except when we're playing Jeopardy...), Luca would be fine; however, it didn't occur to me that he needs help learning to play and learning to trust that we're not going to hurt him.  

 

[PipsMom 34,988]

I'm loving this topic and the responses your getting. 

Your trials and achievements will help many, many new rescue owners through the years that will face the same behaviour.

 

[Missysmom 24,975]

Heck it's helping me Tons right now!

That string toy, and any others I find, are gonna be put away until Missy can learn to play nice with them! She felt bad about last night, she came up right after and smelt the blood and I said yep you did that, don't you feel bad now? And she kissed the owwie. I really hadn't thought about those toys cuz she never plays with them but I can see now we have some serious work to do in that area. And This thread is helping me Tons, so a Great big thanks to all from me too!  

[Infamousmare 491]

Yep, he just turned and bit me, then jumped up and snapped at the 4-year-old's face.  No playing, no reaching down.  I had just taken him out to potty and he was trotting merrily along, then out of nowhere lunged back at me and bit.  

Got him calmed down and back into the kitchen, where the 4-year-old was standing.  She wasn't holding anything, she wasn't talking, she wasn't teasing - literally just standing and waiting for me to get her a cup of water.   He ran at her full speed and nipped her face, knocking her over.  

I have a scheduled phone consult with A Sound Beginning this evening.  

[Pawz4me 6,802]

Let us know what you find out.  What you just described is really worrisome.

[Crinkly 15,586]

Yes.  That is not right.  In his mind it may still be play (they do the face biting and tooth clashing as a fun game between dogs) but it really isn't OK with humans, especially small humans.

Good luck tomorrow.

[Marlene 14,113]

You might also consider a full panel blood test with a vet trip.  He's very young to have such problems but thyroid issues can cause aggression.

Hoping you will get some expert insight and suggestions from your phone consult.

I'll have to go read back on your initial threads and see if you know why he was in a shelter at that age.......aggression? ? ?

[Infamousmare 491]

Marlene - he was found wandering in a bad neighborhood (lots of gangs/drugs - whether he was dumped there or wandered there is anyone's guess).   Someone found him and brought him to the pound (kill shelter).   The foster mommy from our local humane society saw him there and rescued him.   He was with her for just over a week, during which time he was neutered, shaved, stapled (he had several staples put into his cheek s/t a laceration there) and had an upper respiratory infection.   He came to us with kennel cough and allergies (well, we were told he had possible allergies).   We were told (by the foster) to give him Benadryl, which we did, when he first came to us.   However, his sneezing and coughing have subsided, as have most of his reverse sneezing episodes.   Now that he's not on Benadryl, he's very active - which is fine!   But I wonder if that, along with being in a new environment and not feeling well, was taking the edge off of what we're seeing now.   

I broke down and contacted the HS director, with whom I've been in contact before (Luca would not take his meds and did not eat his first few days here).   I explained what's happening, told her what we've been doing, advised her about my phone consult and asked if there is a program for adoptors who face issues like this or if there is a trainer who works with HS/rescue dogs.     I don't want to lose this guy but today has been the worst, by far, and I need help.  

I know from what you all have said that he does not know how to play.  I can totally work with that.   But jumping and snapping (while growling!) at the little one's face or turning to lunge at me while we're out for a potty walk are scary.  Even from a little guy.   :_(

Edited October 1, 2015 by Infamousmare

[Marlene 14,113]

It goes without saying and I'm sure you're ON it but make sure you have a written list of behaviors, medications, food, his age/weight in front of you when you have your phone consult.  Your posts on this forum will be an excellent resource....but I'll bet you already have a well organized list of notes to share. 

We'll all be in a cyber circle around you as you deal with this.

Hugs.

[Infamousmare 491]

HAHAHA!   You've already figured out my meticulous nature, huh?       I think after having 2 special needs kids, I grew to love Excel spreadsheets and detailed notes for various specialist visits.   

Thank you for the reminder, though.  I'll be sure it's sitting by the phone so I'm not running around the house, riling up the kids and the dog, trying to find it.    I also printed out a schedule sheet from the Humane Society of CA - I want to find out if it would be better to follow the type of schedule they recommend rather than having Luca follow our family schedule.   It's a LOT easier for us to adapt to him than vice-versa.  

Lastly, my daughter reminded me that my husband is out of town and that Luca's behavior has been worse since he left.   Will be certain to mention this!  

[Missysmom 24,975]

Wow this is worrisome. You are all in my thoughts and prayers. Hugs

[Marlene 14,113]

Have you ever seen Luca play with another dog?

[Infamousmare 491]

Marlene - when he's around other dogs on our walks (another Shih Tzu one street over and a playful retriever puppy next door), he puts his head down and becomes submissive.   He either hides behind us or goes rear-then-head down and looks at the ground.     He does bark and growl...and then run at stop speed past  the German Shepherds across the street when we walk past their house.    

I was especially sad about the Shih Tzu - he is an adorable guy (same coloring, even!) who is so sweet.  He always comes up to Luca with his tail wagging - never jumpy or yippy - and Luca just cowers and hides.  :_(     His owners are so puzzled by Luca...but of course, their doggy came from a breeder in Colorado.   Poor Luca likely didn't have such a nice start to his life.  

Edited October 1, 2015 by Infamousmare

[Summerangel 18,997]

I'm sorry I can't offer any advice. But I wanted to say, I hope it works out soon ?

[Marlene 14,113]

It would be really interesting if Luca and the neighborhood Tzu could meet somewhere quiet and confined a few times to see if Luca might come around.  Using treats and toys and ignoring them as much as possible.  I should talk, I know how hard it is to get people to "practice" with Shorty and me........no one wants to get bit nor have their dog attacked.

As I say ALL the time (even before we had Shorty G)  "if my Boxers acted the way these ankle biters do - I'd have AC at my door" and complaints filed against us.

BTW  -  if he DOES bite someone who is seen by a doctor, nurse or hospital - a report will be made (they are mandated) and sent to the local PD......he would then have a "bite record".

[Infamousmare 491]

 

BTW  -  if he DOES bite someone who is seen by a doctor, nurse or hospital - a report will be made (they are mandated) and sent to the local PD......he would then have a "bite record".

This is what terrifies me.   

[Infamousmare 491]

Oh.  My.  Goodness.

I just had the most wonderfully constructive conversation with an amazing trainer.  We just got off the phone.   First, thank you THANK YOU to Missysmom for getting me info about this place.   This place is astounding.   (Not sure if I can mention the name here - are we allowed to do that?)  

Now, for the call.   I ordered their book (which arrives tomorrow) and signed up for a phone consultation to speak with one of the founders/trainers.   She went through Luca's history (what we know of it) and his problem behaviors.    She immediately asked follow up questions, listened to everything I told her and then began giving me a ton of great advice.   First, gating off the kitchen is a good idea and getting rid of the pen/having the crate for him was also good (yay me!).   Second, she said that he is very likely giving me subtle cues before he goes into these fits that I am missing.   She said that dogs begin with cues that other dogs can read but we normally miss (giving a hard stare, yawning out of context, stiffening slightly), then they escalate to more noticeable cues (baring teeth, low growl) and then quickly into full blown lunging, snapping, nipping, barking.   It happens quickly and I am more than likely not seeing it.   She is going to send me some video of what this looks like so that I can recognize it in Luca.   

Now, back to the kitchen/crate...because we know nothing of Luca's history AND because the past few weeks have been so traumatic (going from being on the street to the pound, having stitches in his face, being fully shaved (and nicked!), neutered, being sick, bouncing to 2 different homes...), we are pretending that tomorrow is day 1 here.  He will have NO contact with the kids for the first few hours - they'll stay out of the kitchen except for mealtimes.  At those times, Luca will go back into his "safe space" (crate) with a nice chew stick/treats.    I will slowly introduce the kids to him during the afternoon, one at a time.  They will sit and allow him to come up to them and sniff, etc.  They'll have treats they can give him and will speak softly and stroke him gently if he allows.  That's it.    I do all the walking, feeding, etc. for the next several days (well, dh can help!).    We don't know if he's trying to "play" with his episodes, if the kids scare him, if there's something they (esp. the little one) do to annoy him or if there's something in his past triggering this.   What we do know is that he's stressed and we have to help him calm down and give him a safe space before we can begin to address his behavior.  

He will be on a schedule and we will not overwhelm him.  I walk him on a leash to the front door to potty and walk him on that leash back to the kitchen, where he will either roam free with me or go to his safe space (crate).    He'll hear the noises of the house but will not be overwhelmed by people coming in and out.    I can take him for our daily afternoon walk ALONE - no kids - for the next few days.   We'll slowly re-introduce the kids on our walks next week.   

The trainer said that Shih Tzus are notorious for NOT being food-driven.  She said she's seen so many who didn't care about treats or would skip multiple meals (like Luca does!) because they just aren't motivated by food, especially those who have been in shelters.   This is so true - we can't give Luca treats for pottying, but he LOVES when we scratch his ears and say "Potty!  Good boy, Luca!".   She was impressed that he knows to come right back in and sit patiently at the treat tub waiting for his treat afterward (even though he usually just hides it *LOL*).   She agreed that he sounds like a smart little doggy and that he needs to be gently re-introduced into our home before we can go much further with training beyond basic "sit" and potty training.  

I am supposed to take video of his episodes and send it to her so that she can break it down for me and let me know the cues I'm missing, in addition to me watching the instructional videos and reading the book.  

The biggest thing she said, which had me in tears, is that I have a shelf full of books for shiny new puppies that come from nice breeders who have socialized their little wards,  but I have nothing to help me with a sad, scared little guy who missed out on all of that.   This is what I went through with my first two kids - they had special needs and all my shiny new baby books were useless to me.   But now that I understand that Luca is my special needs puppy, I can TOTALLY deal with it.   I have to treat him the same way I treated my son's autism - I have to learn his cues, respond to them, gently shape his behavior and reward him accordingly.  It's just like ABA.  

I have not yet changed Luca's behavior.  I did not get any magical answers.   But boy, do I feel relieved that I have a plan.  

[Summerangel 18,997]

I'm so pleased that you are getting help. Well done Vicki for passing on info about them. 

I know you haven't got any magical cures, but I bet that has taken a weight off your shoulders. ?