I feel funny - your thoughts, please!

[Infamousmare 491]

I have an itchy feeling right now...I'm going to lay it out for you guys and you can tell me if this is odd or if I'm just overreacting.  

You know that Luca has to go back to his foster mom.   At first I felt horrible; however, after continuing to watch him get so agitated and stressed out with the kids and with us, I know for sure that this is absolutely the best thing.    When I contacted the HS director, she agreed, said that they wouldn't allow us to keep him anyway (liability) and instructed me to contact the foster mom directly.  I did.   The foster mom apologized, offered us another dog (we said no) and then said she wouldn't be able to pick him up for another week (I wrote on Sunday, she said she could get him this Saturday).    I wasn't terribly comfortable keeping him for another week for a few reasons; however, I didn't want to be pushy.   So he's here and we're still taking good care of him...just keeping the kids far away and keeping my ankles covered.  *LOL*

Now I just got an email from the foster asking if I'd bring Luca to a busy outdoor shopping complex, where the HS is having an adoption event on Saturday evening.   Luca does NOT do well with loads of people and we're also transferring his toys and things (I'm sending him back with his favorite towel, doggy bed, toys, food, treats and such).  Carrying an agitated doggy and loads of toys/treats through a crowded shopping complex makes me very nervous.    I explained that he gets so agitated, barks, lunges and such.   She said it would be "fine" and that she doesn't remember him ever barking.    In her defense, he didn't bark at first.  He was sick.   It's only been since he's been better that his little personality is coming through.

I'm not here to bash the FM.   She is a lovely person and I so appreciate her efforts to save little guys like Luca.   But he will have been in my home for nearly a month by the time we take him back to her and I've seen him in sickness and in health.  He was with her for just over a week, had just been through the trauma of wandering the streets, neutering and had an upper respiratory infection - he was lethargic.    Should I insist that she comes earlier and not take him to the adoption event?   Or am I being a jerk?   (It's okay to tell me if I am - I can take it!)

[Marlene 14,113]

You are not being a jerk....you have the soul of a Mother and may I say a perfect foster dog Mom.

I am a little perturbed that the shelter suggested Luca to you in the first place, because of the ages of your children........but that is done.  I cannot say how much I admire and respect folks who work in the shelters.  More than anyone they want to get a dog OUTTA there.  But very often dogs are not accurately aged, properly described per breed, nor really temperament tested. Luca is an example of that. 

I would much rather Luca go to a Shih Tzu rescue who understands the breed and can vouch for his good points and foibles and place him with the best forever home FOR HIM.

It sure sounds like the foster Mom is wanting to get him adopted and not keep him herself....which made us all feel better.  At this point YOU know Luca much better than she does.

I think I can get you some Texas references for Shih Tzu Rescue but I'm not sure of your obligation to return him "where he came from". 

Let me know (PM me) if you want me to query the rescue I work with regarding one in Texas.

I completely understand your position in this.....I think

Back to edit  -  if nothing else, I think you and the previous foster Mom should do the hand-off somewhere else - not at the mall event.  He should be able to rest and get his bearings before being thrust into an adoption event.  I work them all the time and it IS stressful for the dogs.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Marlene

[Infamousmare 491]

I am required by my contract to turn him back over to the Humane Society - and I'm glad you mentioned the rescue because the FIRST thought I had was a local sanctuary for Shih Tzus.   I was also very open about the ages of my children and the fact that we were looking for a smaller, calmer dog (we really are not a loud, nuts family - and I knew that having a small child meant that a dog would need to be okay with the high-pitched voice, small stature and not try to dominate).   NOW, after being here and talking about all of this with you guys, reading so much (I now own 7 or 8 books on Shih Tzus, training, rescues...), I realize that we should not have been given a dog that was not TRULY tested with all sorts of children.    His FM is a very nice person, but now, looking back, there were red flags that I never thought about.    

First, we met him and then he was ours.  Typically, dogs are brought for a meet & greet once or twice before being placed.   This FM told us we could have him "right away!".   I wasn't really ready, but we said okay.   I wasn't thrilled that her niece came along, being rough with Luca, diverting attention when I should have been asking more questions, etc.   He was sneezing and wheezing when he arrived, which she said was allergies.   I took him to the vet (that was an ordeal because he wasn't "ours" yet and I had to get approval to take him, which they did not want me to do) and found out he had a pretty nasty upper respiratory infection.  We spent our first week (the 5 day trial period) with a very lethargic-but-cuddly, sick doggy.  I was doing everything in my power to get meds into him and to get him to eat.   Then he developed a bit of a stomach bug.    It was after all of this, when he finally felt better, that he began to get very vocal, lunged, growled and was nervous around us (especially the kids).    Through all of this, I kept emailing the foster mom, but never heard back.   It was then that I got in touch with the HS manager.  Apparently, the foster mom had a family emergency or something.   
Then, after describing all that's happened, how heartbroken we are and how invested we are in Luca's care, to just be offered another dog to see just felt...wrong.    
I don't want another dog.  This is not dialing for dollars or the puppy lotto.  :_(

So now that she wants us to meet at the shopping center, I sent a kind email explaining his behavior (re-explaining - she knows why he's not staying).  She just responded a minute ago, ignoring everything I said, and telling me she'd see me at 5pm.  That's the beginning of the event.   I do not think Luca should be there.   He is going to go berserk and it's not fair for him to be so stressed - ESPECIALLY after he's been in my house for a month!   I am just so uncomfortable dumping him in a cage at an adoption event - not only because I know how agitated he gets, but also because he should be going back to familiar surroundings, be observed and have his bio changed to reflect his needs.   This is going to be a major upheaval for him and I feel badly enough as it is - shouldn't there be an adjustment period back at the FM's house?   Am I nuts to think that?

I cannot keep this little guy because he's really a risk.   We had friends over tonight for dinner and he was snarling and barking at their daughter.  She'd wandered too close to his "safe place" pen.    However, I keep looking at him and I know darned well that should not be bouncing around adoption events or placed in a home with kids or with tons of noise.    

Should I contact the HS manager and let her know my concerns?   Perhaps she's not aware of what's going on?  

Or is this normal for shelters/humane societies?

Edited October 7, 2015 by Infamousmare

[Infamousmare 491]

BTW Marlene - my husband saw your comment about me being a foster mom and cracked up laughing.   "You'd be terrible!  You'd never let anybody adopt!".    It's true.  I am so meticulous that I'd have an 8-page questionnaire, require 16 home visits and mandatory, unannounced check-ins for the life of the dog.      I'd have to keep every dog I fostered because nobody would make the cut.   *LOL!*

[Marlene 14,113]

That's why I could never be a breeder.....If I birthed and cared for a litter for 8-12 weeks - NO ONE would be good enough to take one of my babies. I have SO MUCH respect for the good breeders who do it for the betterment of the breed and not for "spending money".

In the years since we've been involved in purebred dogs and having talked very naively with breeders at dog shows and being kind of "snubbed" I eventually learned "why".

It's also why I love being involved in rescue  -  I KNOW how much we put prospective adopters through......it's pretty close to adopting a hooman bean baby. 

Long before I became involved I heard  LOT of negative comments from folks going through rescue....some of them DID NOT LIKE the rigamarole they were subjected to.

But after spending years seeing what happens to dogs, an amazing amt of purebreeds who end up in shelters and owners don't care enough to go looking for them....I am your worst nightmare when I come to your home to do a home visit.......granted I masquerade as a short, chubby, friendly Nana dog lover  -  but I will go over your home and family with a fine toothed comb before I feel comfortable placing one of our rescues with you.

 

 

[Pawz4me 6,802]

I would contact the humane society manager and let her know about your concerns.  It might not help, but I think it's the right thing to do.

[PipsMom 34,988]

I read your concerns three times just to make sure I was reading it correctly. I'm on your side with concerns... you know Luca now more than anyone else does or ever has..your Mom....even for rehousing they should be noting down everything you say since his next rehousing depends on his behaviour around certain people and families. I thought they were there to help animals re adjust ...undoubtably not by the foster.

I couldn't believe my eyes as I kept reading that the foster person ( not going to call her a mom cause I thought she was heartless not to listen to you). I like yourself imagine how freaked out he's going to be around the event. If and when they take him out his cage ....I think you know what's going to happen....someone's going to get a bite...then what? He will be put down.

By pass the silly foster person, refuse to take him to the event, and don't turn him over to her till after the event has already occurred.....speak directly to the manager pronto! 

[Infamousmare 491]

I had trouble sleeping last night.   Again, I have nothing but respect for fosters who rescue dogs and give them a second chance at life.   But now it all makes sense.   Even though I made the heartbreaking decision to tell them that Luca is aggressive with the kids, she had me keep him for another week.   She immediately responded by offering me my choice of another dog in her care, and when I politely declined, there was NO more contact.   I sent her a long email explaining the behaviors we see, when we see them, his good points and his issues.   I also told her about his favorite things and said I'd be bringing them along to help him re-adjust.   Nothing.   I had to contact her last night to find out what time she'd be here on Saturday.   Then I got a sunny email from her asking me to meet her at the adoption event and telling me she can't wait to get all the goodies I'm bringing for him.   Nothing about his behavior, no response to anything we've experienced with him, no concern that this might not be the smartest idea.  

Given all that's happened, I'm not sure this lady is the best judge of dog behavior and/or the families who should take them.   I'm sure she is kind-hearted and loves dogs, but as Marlene pointed out, Luca should never have come into our home.   My husband is still scratching his head that nobody thought anything of handing us a sick doggy and then asking us NOT to take him to the vet.   We should have turned right around and said no; however, we really love this little guy and we took our responsibility seriously.  

I am going to try to reach the director by phone.   I don't think this is an email conversation.  

[Missysmom 24,975]

Oh my Mary, you are right on target. I too reread your post several times as I really couldn't believe what I was reading. Talk about a liability, I'm quite sure the HS manager would totally agree with you, they do not want that liability. It really sounds like the foster mom is going to try to adopt him out again. And you are so right they need to change his profile so this doesn't happen again.

i must admit I had a rather similar situation in that we got a dog that too turned out to be aggressive. And the foster begged us to keep him and give him more time and said he wasn't aggressive. I know that's a harsh word but that's exactly what he was in our environment. He was attacking our other dog and we had huge vet bills treating our other dog from the injuries. We ended up going to the manager too and she was very understanding and took care of the issue herself. I too hated to do it as the foster mom was a good caring person but I had to protect our other pup. 

Please go with your instincts they are dead on, and contact the manager and drop him off directly to them not the foster. Hugs

ETA- looks like we posted at the same time. Am sooo glad you are contacting the manager!

Edited October 7, 2015 by Missysmom

[Infamousmare 491]

O.M.Gosh.    He is back up for adoption on the HS website.    He's still listed as being a "snugglebunny" and "good with kids".    Luca does not like to snuggle, he is nervous around kids and he does not walk well on a leash.    (those are old pictures of him - right after he was shaved)    Go to page 2 and look for "Luka".       

http://legacyhumanesociety.org/our-dogs/available-dogs/

[PipsMom 34,988]

Arg! I feel your anger and astonishment 

What's wrong with this organisation? ....they didn't even change the words. That is so wrong on so many levels.

[Missysmom 24,975]

Oh Wow...

[Sophie's Haven 17,464]

OMG when I started reading your posts my blood turn to high boil...........This is a rescue you may want to call just to get some information to clear your mind and get some good advice. LONESTAR SHIH TZU LHASA APSO RESCUE OF TEXAS...........google for information.  Rescue dogs that I have dealt with are in a 2 week incubation before they are even place in foster care.........for health and behavior issues. Luca should not be put back up for adoption........are they not aware of the liability. I would talk to the HS TOP DOG and express my concerns........I too have to turn my guys back in to the rescue they came from if I am no longer able to care for them but I think I would be fighting this one and looking for another placement for Luca. To be honest with you when you pull up the Shih Tzu rescue you may not get a person one on one but send an email and someone should get back with you.......remember these people volunteer their time and are not always available 24/7.  Hugs to you for what your having to go thru for Luca............

[Amy0515 4,651]

O.M.Gosh.    He is back up for adoption on the HS website.    He's still listed as being a "snugglebunny" and "good with kids".    Luca does not like to snuggle, he is nervous around kids and he does not walk well on a leash.    (those are old pictures of him - right after he was shaved)    Go to page 2 and look for "Luka".       

http://legacyhumanesociety.org/our-dogs/available-dogs/

Maybe you should bring this organization's business practices to the public.  Contact your local paper, put it on their FB page, call your local media of any kind.  This is so unfair to Luca.  

They do not appear to have his best interests in mind.  All they want to do it get rid of him.  This bothers me on so many levels.  It makes me want to just bawl.  Luca deserves so much more than to be pawned off on another unsuspecting family who will end up having to take him back for behavioral issues that they are not equipped to handle.  

 

[Crinkly 15,586]

I am so sorry you have to go through this as well as the wrench that him leaving you will cause.

So sorry.

[Luna 8,676]

My advise is that you speak directly with the HS director and tell him/her EVERYTHING, from start to finish.  I would also contact the Shih Tzu rescue, who are probably better-able to give Luca the care and rehabilitation he needs and deserves.  They may be able to work with the HS and get Luca transferred to their care.

I am somewhat annoyed with rescues for several reasons.  One is that although I offered to foster for our local Shih Tzu rescue and was told I could not because I have intact dogs in the house.  When I pointed-out that the dogs are altered before going to foster homes so what possible difference could it make, they said "It's the principle of the thing".  Grand.  Here they had a chance for a foster home with in-depth experience of the breed and they said no...and they are still out there begging for foster homes.

The second experience was with our local shelter.  I had offered to come-in one day a week to groom shelter dogs to increase their chance for adoption.  They asked if I did cats as well and when I explained that I did not because I'm very allergic to cats they flatly said that in that case they couldn't use me.

I have nothing but admiration for the folks who work hard for rescues, but this sort of thing has really put me off.

[Infamousmare 491]

Okay, so do I contact the rescue, tell my story and ask them to intervene with the HS?      Or should I try to reach the HS director first?   

I am beginning to wonder if most of them there have their hearts in the right places, but don't truly understand the dogs.   I'm certainly no expert, but after 3 hours' worth of reading/videos/consultation with a professional trainer who works specifically with rescue dogs, I feel like I already know more than the foster.  :_(   (Of course, my background in psychology and human behavior has been very helpful!)      I think they're blowing me off because, perhaps, they think I'm just looking to unload him because I've just decided I don't want a dog anymore - I'm sure they deal with that a lot, too.  

 

[Sophie's Haven 17,464]

I personally would contact the HS director first and see what his or her comments are regarding Luca. I only mention the Lonestar Rescue as to be able to talk to a person that would maybe give you advise about your concerns. I have had rescues now for 5 years but does not make me an expert but these groups of people having been doing this for years. 

[Infamousmare 491]

I. could. scream.

I am not being heard.   Having to re-home Luca puts a burden on them and when families choose not to keep dogs they don't think about the hours involved in re-homing...we're happy to give you another dog...we've never seen these behaviors...blah blah blah.   No indication that what I've said has sunk in, no indication that it was likely his illness and being overwhelmed that caused his lethargy and "cuddly-ness" early on, no understanding that it was an incredibly bad decision to ask me to keep him for another week while we're being snapped and growled at, no indication that they'll reconsider listing Luca as a dog who needs a home with no small children...but lots of excitement that I'll bring all the fancy treats, toys and goodies that I've purchased for him along with me.   

I am not merely a person who decided that a dog doesn't fit her lifestyle.  I am a mother whose children have been growled at, snapped at and are now afraid of this little "snuggle bunny", "cutie pie face" dog who is "great with kids".   I am an educated woman who can clearly see that this poor dog is agitated in an environment with activity and noise.   I am a loving person who adopted a dog, spent a whole lot of time, effort, energy and money trying to rehabilitate an issue that is not going to be easily (if ever) resolved.   I am a human being who realizes that this never should have happened and feels terribly, but wants what's best FOR THE DOG.  

And I am not being heard.    I'm still supposed to bring this poor boy to the adoption event, along with all of his "goodies".   

My husband brought up a very good point (reason #487 why I married him!):  He said that most people don't know "normal" from "not normal" with dogs.  "Good with kids" means that he doesn't tear them to shreds when they tease him.   He reminded me that when the niece was here, she thought that "playing" with him meant sticking her hands in his face and snatching them away when he nipped - and that the foster was laughing right along.   Perhaps we are the odd ones here - the HS likely thinks we're being overly cautious with this adorable little doggy when he growls and snaps at us (which, by the way, freaking HURTS).   I mean, he's a little dog.  So he certainly can't do much harm when he bites.   Also, he wonders if because everyone involved has good intentions, they don't think it affects these dogs to be taken from one home to another.   Perhaps the thinking is that all he needs is "love" - it's certainly the line we were sold.   So when I keep bringing up points about the behaviors we've seen and his general demeanor, they're likely brushing me off, knowing that the next guy will likely adopt him and not complain - especially given all of the negativity surrounding people who re-home dogs.    I could just tear my hair out.

I am going to contact the person at the Shih Tzu rescue and see what her thoughts are.   Otherwise, I'm just going to take him late (like at the end of the event).  

[PipsMom 34,988]

I have a after thought. When emailing these morons include a mobile video of him in all his fiery biting and snarling. Surely that would be proof for them that Luca has serious problems....just a thought.

Hugs

[Pawz4me 6,802]

This is ridiculous.  There's no reason they should be treating you the way they are.  They should be taking your input very seriously!

[Missysmom 24,975]

This is so incredibly sad for all involved- that being you and your family, Luca and whomever the next poor person is who unknowingly adopts him.

Keeping you and your family in my prayers. Hugs

[PipsMom 34,988]

A Ramble and Observation

Incredibly sad indeed and Luca has stayed on my mind all day and I keep returning hoping..praying something good comes out of this.

Luca has been through so much, Mare and her family cast into turmoil...I ask why again....I know things happen for a reason and in Gods on time he shows us the path....

I'm not going to preach so relax....But a higher power is a work for this poor dog.

Of all families in this world Mare was chosen down this path to intertwine only with Luca...to understand him...be his voice....for HE knew Mare would stand up for him, speak for what is right, correct injustice and get the help this little soul so desperately needs. 

Luca now has a guardian angel and it's Mare. I know you will do right by Luca...for you are the chosen one.

Ramble over with...off my soap box now 

[Summerangel 18,997]

Oh my goodness... I'm sorry to hear they are putting you and Luca through this... 

You've had some really good advice.. And my blood is boiling.... 

I really can't imagine what you're going through... 

[ParadiseTzu 11,275]

I have thought before that Luca was very lucky to have found Mare. Mare, you are clearly an educated caring woman and of course must put your children as top priority in finding the best solution for Luca.

It seems to me you need out of your contract. That whole organization think they are performing such a good service in our world today with overcrowded facilities that handle rescue dogs. In some dogs' cases, maybe so. But they dont have the depth it takes to do it right. As in many other services, quality is just not there.

Could you contact an attorney to help you get out of that contract? Sometimes they can just write a letter. Then you can proceed to work with a better educated rescue group.  I have heard many good things about Lone Star Rescue.

I wish you the very best of luck with this situation.